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Howdy.

So this week my girlfriend, who I had been getting very close with and we were beginning to long term plan together, had a moment of deep realization about the kind of blowback possible being openly communist, in favor of direct action, and pro-palestine can be. I've not hid any of this over the last several years of dating, but there's a difference between understanding and understanding, you know? She's thinking about calling it quits because she doesn't want to risk her own career which she has worked very hard to develop in a very competitive and innately unstable industry (performance art). She's dealing with some self admitted cognitive dissonance over the matter because she agrees with me politically, but can't bring herself to committing to resistance and solidarity in the face of blowback.

In a certain sense I understand. It's the same discomfort I first felt when I realized how fucked we were with climate change and rising fascism to begin with. How was I supposed to live a normal happy life with that? Well, obviously I wasn't, not unless I wanted to be complicit--by inaction if nothing else--in the self-annihilation of the biosphere and the genocide of people in the global South that would be necessary to enforce borders in the face of climate catastrophe and migration. It seems like she's choosing to try and live out her fantasy over solidarity or just confronting the material reality that is worsening conditions for all of us, even in the imperial core, so in another sense I just want to shrug at this and call it the same moral cowardice that most labor aristocrats have chosen in the core.

My family is not taking the news well, and thinks I'm throwing away my one shot at love because I can't compromise on my extreme politics. This is an absurd framing of events to me. I've been nothing but forthright about my commitments and beliefs this entire time. My parents clam up and get resistant with even milk toast hypotheticals like, "would you personally kill Hitler if given the chance?" So it feels impossible to have a sensible political discussion with them. They're that squeamish and averse to any and all violence that they can't imagine resisting genocide or fascism. So to a certain extent it feels impossible to make headway on any kind of informative discussion. But they continuously weaponize pity as shame it feels like, and say things about how sad and lonely life is going to be if I don't compromise on politics for relationships. It almost reads as a veiled threat at cutting me off too, sadly enough.

I guess I'm just looking for feedback and an opportunity to externalize my thoughts. I am a fairly gregarious and well liked person. I have a good social life, I've dated successfully before this and I'm sure I will again, but dang. It sucks having my parents harangue me for genocide being a hard line in the sand. I'm the beneficiary of a great many privileges that make it seem all the more imperative that I take a stand on these kinds of issues. I find myself feeling closer to people than ever when I'm involved in organizing work or political work, so their doom and gloom about how lonely my life will be I'm tempted to read as ignorance only a liberal mind is capable of. But like, am I actually the asshole? Do I need to check my power level? I guess I'm just baffled at how anyone thinks they're going to live a "normal" life, much less WANT to, when the West's rapid decline into the third reich is in full swing. Do they all imagine themselves as good little Germans, showing up to work and paying taxes, while tut tutting at the news? As far as I'm concerned the only good Germans under Nazi Germany were partisans.

I don't want to get too ranty here. I'll likely delete this post after a few days. Just wanted to hear some other perspective, maybe from people who have been through similar, or maybe just some commiseration. Whether I'm right or not it still sucks, you know?

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[–] electric_nan@lemmy.ml 7 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

My gut reaction is that you could be a little more flexible in your relationships. Not everyone is going to be as all-in as you are. Maybe they'll get there politically, maybe they are there and just not comfortable playing certain roles. If you genuinely can't be satisfied with that, then you'll have to act accordingly. Otherwise, I'd suggest more of a "meeting where they're at" attitude when it comes to people you love. Not compromising your own principles, but allowing them space for their own. Again, if you can't, you can't. That's valid. In my experience though, my relationships have been a journey of mutual growth and change.

[–] MemesAreTheory@hexbear.net 4 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

That's what I was trying here. She seemed like she WAS getting there, and I wasn't pushing anything onto her as far as organizing or direct action go. But when I start exposing myself to legal risk, that clearly has implications on family as we discuss kids and living outside of our nation if origin.

Is what it is. Libs can't handle that smoke and that makes sense.

[–] gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

If you were your gf, would you want to be with somebody who might disappear to prison for an unknown amount of time?

[–] MemesAreTheory@hexbear.net 5 points 4 hours ago

For a socialist organizing reason? Hell yeah comrade.

[–] AF_R@hexbear.net 6 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago) (3 children)

I’d rather have financial independence, a minimum amount of comfort, a cushy office job, and funnel money to China and keep my communism to myself and not advance communism in any meaningful way; rather than be a social pariah, broke, and staunchly outspoken communist yet still not advance communism in any meaningful way

Call it blackpilled, fake leftist, class traitor, that’s okay. I would probably agree. I don’t think your way is wrong.

But until the vanguard are at my door and landlords hang in the streets, I will be okay materially supporting China’s revolution instead of starting one myself. To be frank, that’s doing more to advance communism than most Western online leftists are doing.

I don’t think a movement like Mao’s is possible in the modern world. Yes, that’s literally what Lenin thought before he pressed the communism button too. But I can’t sacrifice my only hope of retirement for an ideal that is more smoke than substance at this point.

[–] juniper@hexbear.net 2 points 4 hours ago

I will be okay materially supporting China’s revolution instead of starting one myself. To be frank, that’s doing more to advance communism than most Western online leftists are doing

What exactly are you referring to here as materially supporting revolution? Buying Labubus?

But I can’t sacrifice my only hope of retirement for an ideal that is more smoke than substance at this point.

Do a little bit of reading about climate change. Your "retirement" ain't going to look like what the bourgeois tells you it will be.

[–] infuziSporg@hexbear.net 1 points 3 hours ago

My horizon for retirement is a commune, tbh, all I want in this life involves moving toward the communal mode of existence.

[–] MemesAreTheory@hexbear.net 3 points 6 hours ago

I appreciate a divergent viewpoint. I have much more dower predictions about the stability of America/the for core than you do it sounds like. I genuinely don't see it surviving in it's current form for longer than another 25-50 years. What comes next could be worse, but I think it's on us in the core to do everything in our power to mitigate damage or prepare that missing vanguard for when the collapse of federal power is ripe for intervention.

We have material and possibly theoretical divergence, though, and that informs our approach. In the meantime you will be less overt, I've got the whole "A communist disdains to hide their views" thing going on.

[–] JustSo@hexbear.net 12 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (1 children)

This is a really tough thing to be going through. Very reasonable on your part all things considered. I hope what I'm going to reply with isn't too hard nosed for where you're at in figuring things out.

Your parents have probably lived a lifetime of compromises and see your unwillingness to compromise as a sign of immaturity.

You mentioned power level concealment elsewhere and I would suggest based on your description of your parents and your dynamic that yes, you probably should start tamping way the fuck down on what you share around and say to your parents.

Not just to smooth the road in future as far as your relationship with them, but as a basic matter of discipline and opsec. You shouldn't cut them off and isolate yourself, but you don't have to give them insight into the extent of your convictions if you plan to do dangerous illegal shit at any point which obviously it sounds like you very much intend to stay open to.

(Otherwise all of this is moot and you could even reconsider compromise with your beau.)

Its okay to love a liberal but you can't trust them not to rat you out or otherwise betray you even by accident, or with naive good will and ignorance of real consequences.

Parents often do irrational destructive things to their children to retain a sense of control (not over their child per se but in general) especially when they think their children are making self destructive choices. Genuine love can motivate real violence by way of liberal ignorance.

Don't let your love for them be the reason you get locked up or killed.

[–] MemesAreTheory@hexbear.net 1 points 4 hours ago

I think it was really important for me to hear. Thanks for the reminder, this is an opsec issue/self protection. Even if they profess socialist sympathies, if the only appropriate resistance to fascism that they can imagine is laying down and waiting to be exterminated peacefully then I can't at all divulge to them what direct action I'm involved in looks like.

[–] woodenghost@hexbear.net 8 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (1 children)

It's wonderful and inspiring how you're vocal and serious about anti-fascist politics and actual praxis. Though, just to get the complete picture: is this really about a fundamental difference in values, or are simple material concerns hiding behind it? Because, in my experience, they often are and you focus suspiciously on ideology.

You even mention she agrees with you in theory, but not about the way you're going about praxis. So if she already has a problem with you being vocal and doing legal stuff and attending protests (even if there is some repression and criminalization) and how you're being perceived by burgoise neighbors, then I see your concern. If she somehow has a problem with this bare minimum, I can absolutely see your side. I don't think, partners absolutely have to mirror each other's level of activism, but doing this much without forcing her to join every protest should be no problem.

But, if it's about more than that, then it depends. Is it about actual concrete stuff you're doing, that's actually putting yourself and potentially her in real danger? Then the question is about how good your support network is (and about informed consent, but I don't think that's the problem, since you talk about it). The support network is important, because it's the difference between doing dangerous self-destructive adventurism and strategic calculated risk taking as part of a larger plan and movement. The support network could be a loose movement with tight cells, a wide network of close friends, a party, an org or anything. Think: "If I'm arrested, who would bail me out, sleep in a car to welcome me when I'm out, pay legal fees and so on?" Every good movement or org should cover at least that much. It would be too much to put on just one close partner. In this case, I would understand, if she has a problem if you go ahead without building that network first, potentially putting all that on her. A solution could be to shift your activism towards network building, before doing more serious stuff.

On the other hand, you mentioned moving to somewhere inside the imperial core. Are you currently in the periphery? Than I get it, the increased levels of hypocrisy and racism in the US and Europe might be too much. Immigrants rely a lot on networks of other immigrants to get by. Though the leftist comrades might be all the more thankful to have you.

If your not from outside the core, for example if it's about moving from the US to Germany, it wouldn't be a fundamental change. Organizing in both countries around Palestine is totally possible and many people in almost every city do it and offer support. Yes, there is repression, but there are many orgs who support each other and many roles within those orgs, some less exposed than others. You could definitely continue to be active to a similar level when moving from one imperial core country to another. Only the strategies would need to change. So, if you not wanting to move is part of the issue and activism is the deal breaker, you might want to contact orgs in that country and ask them about ways to get involved. There are cool people everywhere, it just might be harder to find them in some places. Remember there will be other people who moved there.

Maybe question, if it's really about political values or more about not giving up the network you already have where you are. That's a valid concern of course, but a purely practical one. Separate it from fundamental values.

I might be way way off with everything I just wrote, since I don't really know your situation, so I apologize in advance, if that's the case. Sending lots of solidarity and love your way comrade!

[–] MemesAreTheory@hexbear.net 2 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago)

She doesn't even disagree with the praxis, she just doesn't like the risk of blowback. My career is fairly public facing and so is hers. Even legal advocacy can see lawfare applied to resistors, and institutional headwinds for careers in various fields up to and including unlawful (but when have the courts ever sided with leftists) termination from employment. Consequences only raise in severity from there with other direct action. It's a move from the US to EU I was considering, and as non-citizens our legal ramifications could be even higher. We would both have strong outstanding reasons NOT to return to the US if we had made the move that way to begin with. It's just a bummer I am beginning to think. Unavoidable if someone chooses a cushy labor aristocrat job and keeps their head down.

Thanks for helping me think it through, though. Much appreciated.

[–] Muinteoir_Saoirse@hexbear.net 23 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago) (2 children)

What is the point of an artist who doesn't have conviction in their beliefs? I don't know your girlfriend, I don't know her art, but art is actually the best positioned "job" to have a stance on something. That is the point of it, and you can always continue to do it even if certain funders get squeamish.

To prioritize a position in the arts "industry" over the expression of an actual truth, your real beliefs, is pointless. It's hollow art, it's meaningless money-laundering, and artists in that position aren't worth whatever it is they think they're trying to say with their art.

No advice or opinion about your relationship, just a thought about how useless "art" that cowers rather than fearlessly expressing the self is. Actually, I would go farther and say that the cowardice is an honest and true facet of the self, and that the profession of a belief in a value that you aren't willing to live is the true performance.

[–] theturtlemoves@hexbear.net 10 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

You need food to live. Art doesn't bring a steady income, so the fear of losing connections or even being blacklisted is very much real.

[–] Muinteoir_Saoirse@hexbear.net 6 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

I have lived as an artist. And I would never have prioritized my "career" in art over the principled stand against literal genocide. Do you know what's a very much real fear? Bombs. Sanctions. Western military intervention. Losing pay in a settler society doesn't compare.

Art that doesn't reflect belief in something better isn't worthwhile, it's a direct and active participation in the replication of bourgeois culture.

[–] MemesAreTheory@hexbear.net 17 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago) (1 children)

Yeah and I just want to avoid doxxing otherwise I'd be very specific, but it's not what I'd call courageous or expressive art. It's something much more conservative, professionalized, and bourgeois in coding, ya know? She genuinely loves the art form and is very talented, so I'm not here to hate on the class connotation. It just isn't immune in the ways we might typically think of. She's also pursuing residency in a country where it's de facto illegal to be pro Palestine now. Hooray for the enlightened liberal EU! It was as we moved to discussions of how I would move my career that way that the blowback became a more clear concern for her, you know? She was curious as to what direct action actually looked like, and I was talking about Palestine Action in the UK. Then the article about the Elbit Factory in Czechia getting torched came out, and I think it all just became too much for her. Imagining the legal repercussions of being associated with that, even if indirectly, made her entire life and dream flash before her eyes.

It sucks but I don't know what else to make of it. Liberals like leftist talking points until we dare imply those of us in the core might have to burden some risk too. I don't want to be the guy in leftist groups who hits on the women there, but at this point I know better than to date someone who does not understand politics robustly. Someone can nod along and agree with every marxist rant you can produce, but it's all just nice ideas to them. The going gets tough and people retreat to their comfortable bread and circuses, even when they're one of the circus performers I guess.

[–] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 12 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

Your post and this comment have bolstered my moral courage in the face of exhaustion

[–] MemesAreTheory@hexbear.net 11 points 20 hours ago

Care-Comrade We're gonna be alright.

[–] Oskolki@hexbear.net 14 points 20 hours ago

I personally think it boils down to class interests. You can sort of see it in the idea of what Trotskyist types call "Permanent revolution"

They basically believe that ultimately people are -all- interested in their class interests. This allows them to focus on their own because they're "kind hearted", without being hypocritical. A way to combat cognitive dissonance.

It's easy to avoid some imperial treats, but to go your whole life without any imperialist treats, how difficult is that? I don't mean in like a bullshit ultra way. I mean once you achieve class consciousness, from that point forward, can you dedicate your life to the people? It's best to just be honest and say: "Nah today I won't be serving the cause I'll be (insert what you wanna do and why here)" most people will be like this, not everyone can be like Che, if it was possible we'd already be there, because everyone deep down knows we should be helping the people instead of doing escapism, but because such a lifestyle is unsustainable to most people, it's unrealistic.

Ask yourself why do so few people return to the mountains once they find success in the city? It could be because they developed new class relationships at the city, now there's a conflict between that class and the class they've left at home. That's how Brutal life we've created. Such precarious lifestyle destroys peoples willingness to engage with reality and so they refuse to think, then when trouble comes and there's multiple people drowning who do they choose to save? The one they love the most or the one who needs the most help? You will never know for certain, but through studying, learning, experiencing and work, the more you'll learn the more you will be able to identify the correct path, who to save, who to let go, how to keep your loved ones out of harm's way etc. That's all we can lever hope for, to learn, fail and learn again.

[–] juniper@hexbear.net 13 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) (1 children)

Your post is well reasoned and I think a perfectly healthy way of deliberating over it. I can't speak for your situation but you will absolutely find love/connection/etc in the future, so no reason to worry about that. I certainly wouldn't be able to maintain a relationship with somebody who, after years of political transparency, chooses to "go along to get along." I understand the calculus on her part, although doing so for the sake of a "career" in performance art is totally laughable to me. If she was a junior banker or analyst on Wall Street it would make so much more sense, even if an objectively evil choice.

As for the wider question of why people choose to ignore the reality in front of them, well... I think history demonstrates that the majority of people are passive until material conditions directly affect them. At present she can play pretend, but at some point in the future things will break for her specifically and she may just remember how right you were. Cold comfort, but no use fighting over the They Live glasses if she hasn't put them on yet at this point in your relationship.

[–] MemesAreTheory@hexbear.net 11 points 20 hours ago (2 children)

Thanks for your kind words. It's nice to hear/see them from someone else, even if I already believed that too.

Yeah it's really frustrating and hurtful for my parents to be making zero room for sympathy for me in this. They liked her, I get it, they're sad it's ending and want to put that hurt somewhere, guess I get to have insult added to injury then. But for real, I was so transparent the entire time, and then I'm the bad guy in their mind for not being able to make it work. Do they want me to date someone who I'm fundamentally unaligned with? Do they want me to give up my strongest convictions and way of life in order to have, what, a relationship that might ultimately culminate in resentment or failure as we both realize the incompatibility too late? I guess more than anything they can't imagine believing in something so much that you'd give up a relationship for it, but that again just smacks of privilege and moral cowardice to me. Who cares if the world burns around us, at least we'd be in loooooooove, right? It just seems so juvenile. Ultimately it's them projecting their discomfort with my politics onto her and, so far as they can imagine it, all potential dating partners. My girlfriend was very clear that I had been nothing but forthright up until this point, but my parents won't even believe me when I tell them her words about the matter. They keep interjecting with their own catastrophizing and anxiety about my politics making me unlovable. Perhaps that's how they really feel. Concerning I suppose. If they were chuds I could write them off and be done with it, but they like to pretend they're good and reasonable people. Liberals sure are something. They're just so totally insulated from political consequences that they can't imagine sacrificing anything in life of any real importance for a greater good. They're still friends with maga chud republicans, they're still dreaming of a form of resistance that can avoid violence, and they are too white and protected by the system as it is to imagine there being consequences for being wrong. I thought I had been making progress with hem over the years too. Like, my mom would say she's a socialist now, but as soon as you step outside the idealized niceties of theory and into the world as it exists and history as it plays out, it all gets too uncomfortable.

It just felt like a double whammy today. Get all but broken up with (it's 97% of the way there), and then I try to talk to my parents about it and I catch an earfull about how this is what I get for being so extreme and violent. Fun day.

[–] Wertheimer@hexbear.net 13 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

Incredibly relatable thread. Many of my oldest friends are Nice, Upstanding Liberals - the (not-even-always-)white moderates from Letter from a Birmingham Jail. Except I can't even insist that they read LfaBJ because they'll wonder-who-thats-for at the white moderate section and will try to hit me back with the "MLK doesn't endorse violent action!" passages. Some seem to think that making anyone uncomfortable (via rudeness, disruption, or simple dismissal) is a greater crime than systemic oppression. After all, the crimes of capitalism are Just the Way the World Works, whereas anything I advocate to change that is just me being difficult.

The last time I had a real crisis over all this I read Sartre's essays on the occupation and collaboration, which helped a bit. The first several essays in this book were on point. This essay, by Jones Manoel, also helped me conceptualize some problems in the way both my interlocutors and I were arguing.

[–] MemesAreTheory@hexbear.net 8 points 19 hours ago

Thank you so much, I'm looking forward to reading those. I got my parents to read the Letter to make a point much like this 4-5 years ago, and I thought it really sank in at the time, but man. They've clearly been harboring resentment and quiet disapproval this whole time.

[–] juniper@hexbear.net 8 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

I thought I had been making progress with hem over the years too. Like, my mom would say she's a socialist now, but as soon as you step outside the idealized niceties of theory and into the world as it exists and history as it plays out, it all gets too uncomfortable.

I went through the same with my own parents. They are well aware of all the systemic consequences of capitalism and the looming collapse of the biosphere, but as soon as I start sounding even remotely like a-guy they shut down. It's ideology at work. Liberals are only superficially different from chuds and will remain so until their ass is in a bread line surrounded by people they used to ignore. I try not to let it drive me nuts anymore, it's just dialectics at work.

It just felt like a double whammy today. Get all but broken up with (it's 97% of the way there), and then I try to talk to my parents about it and I catch an earfull about how this is what I get for being so extreme and violent. Fun day.

Definitely an unforced error on your parents' part regardless of their own beliefs and insecurities. I'm sorry comrade meow-hug

[–] MemesAreTheory@hexbear.net 7 points 18 hours ago

Thank you so much for the love and solidarity. I'm thinking about how, if possible, to have a conversation about it all that's more productive. Maybe it just isn't. They spent my whole life harping on cOmMuNiCaTiOn, and then they can't remove their own feelings from the situation for half an hour to just let me cope with the pain and loss. They cant even hear me when I say their reasons for finding my politics distasteful weren't hers, they just immediately project that onto her and say they're not surprised, they'd do the same in her shoes. I'm not even mad so much as baffled at how selfish and egotistical that response is of them. These people were social workers all their lives, they're supposed to be emotionally attuned and empathetic lmao. Even if they do think that, who the fuck starts a conversation like that I just ~~sat down~~ got broken up with.

I think I'm going to have to separate it as much from the politics as possible for now because that's feeling like a dead end. I guess I'm just amazed at how much acid got thrown in my face when I was already down. I don't want to totally write them off as a source of emotional support but yeesh. Once bitten twice shy that's for sure.