this post was submitted on 05 Jul 2022
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Oh fuck off mate. Only Russia is to blame for the Russo-Ukrainian war.
Russia invaded Ukraine, not the other way around.
This is the equivalent of a child pointing at a sibling and saying "they made me do it"
If you're looking for a comparison child sibling fights, a much more apt one would be your sibling putting their fingers millimeters from your face going "I'm not touching you" for an hour straight. Then the prick runs and tattles to mom the second you respond by hitting them.
Thanks you for saying what a lot of others think. I would not engage the tankie any further.
It's funny how you fascists always run away from a simple discussion. Do you have so little faith in your ability to discuss and defend what you pretend to believe?
Is it your contention that the US has been actively involved in funding Nazi groups in Ukraine for decades because they are altruistic humanitarians?
What is your explanation for America's interferences in Ukraine?
The only child here is the one who's ignoring all history that led up to the conflict and pretending the west had no role to play.
It's incredible how you constantly try remove any agency the people of Ukraine have. I was there for Euromaidan. I know exactly what we've been fighting for.
On the flip side to play devil's advocate for a moment, even if we were to take this at face value that makes the actions of Russia toddler level bullshit. "Oh noes the evil west uwu, I have to murder tens of thousands of people now. Look what they made me do, uwu"...
Путин, пошёл на хуй
Was it to become a vassal state of the USA with a pseudo nationalism rooted in Nazi era ideology and primitive widespread racism? Because that's what happened. That's what you got. You destroyed your country to get a pat on the head for helping them "weaken Russia". They used and betrayed you and you still don't see it. It's what they do everywhere. Taiwan is next.
The IMF deal wrecked your economy. The Maidan was and now has demonstrably been proven a colossal failure.
Nah, I'm not taking any agency from you for the things you did as reported by CNN back in 2014 https://twitter.com/paulius60/status/1611148483859255296
The real question is why you would take the agency away from people you were doing this to.
I am those people...
The people doing that to us were the Russians.
Also as a reminder, 75% of us voted for Zelensky. The further east you went the higher the percentage. Go fly a kite somewhere else сука
Even CNN reported openly who was shelling Donbas, but you keep on going there. Now, trolls like you are all over social media cheering for other people to keep on dying. By the way, remind me again what platform Zelensky ran on again?
Getting rid of the Russian corruption and getting closer to the EU.
Seems like you're omitting something pretty important there, but I've stopped expecting any sort of intellectual honesty a long time ago.
What am I omitting?
Talking about intellectual honesty coming from you is hilarious.
In one side you preach about the propeganda of western media and then use said media as proof... Laughable indeed.
He's kept a lot or working on aot.of his promises.
https://www.slovoidilo.ua/amp/2021/03/29/stattja/polityka/rytoryka-zelenskoho-vstupu-post-prezydenta-zaraz-cymy-obicyankamy
https://voxukraine.org/richnitsya-prezidentstva-zelenskogo-otsinka-voxcheck/
You know what you're omitting and the fact that you can't even bring yourself to say it really says all we need to know. I love how your whole trolling strategy is rooted in people in the west being ignorant on the subject.
I gave you two links that go over point by point his campaign promises spanning 2 years of outlook.
Quit your grandstanding and actually add something to the conversation or fuck off.
I'm not doing any grandstanding. You know perfectly well that implementing Minsk was a huge part of his platform, and if he actually did it then there likely wouldn't have been a war. The fact that you won't acknowledge this says volumes. It's incredible to see people like you pretending that the war couldn't have been averted. Now thousands of people have died, millions had their lives ruined, but you don't care about any of that because it's not your ass on the front lines.
1st. he didn't really campaign on any promise to follow the Minsk Agreement, and he's outright stated that. He literally campaign to reduce corruption, remove russian corruptive influences, get closer to the EU and to stop the war. Only vatniks like you keep saying this over and over again, removing any agency the Ukrainian people have.
2nd. There was only 1 aggressor here... the war started and ends with Russia.
Except nobody is removing any agency from the Ukrainian people here. You're just stating a lie to create a false narrative that all of Ukraine was united behind your nationalist movement. Nobody is debating who the aggressor here is either. That's another rhetorical trick you like to use to distract from the actual point being made which is that the war could have been avoided.
One thing we can agree on is that the war will indeed end when Russia decides and it will end on Russian terms because NATO is now very clearly tapped out in its support for Ukraine. The NATO summit made it very clear that Ukraine isn't going to be part of NATO any time soon, and that there won't be any better guarantees than the ones Ukraine is getting now. As Petr Pavel openly said, Ukraine's got six months left.
You can keep calling me names all you like, but sooner or later you're going to have to start engaging with reality that the west used Ukraine to try and weaken Russia, and now that it's no longer able to do that the west will discard Ukraine like a used condom. This is the fate of every western proxy to date, and if you think the fate of Ukraine is going to be any different what else is there to say to you.
75% is a pretty staggering majority I'd say.
Dude you keep saying the same shit. No kidding that the US is using Ukraine, currently. I wish the US wasn't involved at all but here we are. Caught between an arms dealer and a madman.
So, on some level you do understand that you're getting used, and yet you still have some delusions that Ukraine will benefit from aligning with the west in the end. Amazing stuff there.
Meanwhile, that 75% of yours isn't exactly evenly distributed is it. Let's just look at the election in 2004 went:
this is the 2010 election:
As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:
source https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
If Ukraine was united the way you pretend it is, then there wouldn't have been any civil war after maidan in the first place for Russia to exploit.
Let's do 2019.
which I would post an image here but looks like my instances image upload is fubar again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_presidential_election#/media/File:2019_Ukrainian_presidential_election,_round_2.svg
Literally the further east you go the more people voted for Zelenskyy...
Uh yeah, people preferred Zelensky to Poroshenko, no shit! The further east you go the more people voted for this https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/20/ukraines-leader-stood-on-platform-of-peace-but-finds-himself-on-brink-war
It's hilarious how even mainstream western media clearly contradicts the narrative you keep trying to paint here.
Reading is hard and I guess so is following what you said.
You were talking about him running is campaign to follow Minsk. I said he didn't run anything on his campaign about Minsk and was in fact openly stating he wasn't going to follow Minsk, but he did campaign on wanting peace with Russia.
Comprehend now?
Oh that's weird, do explain this then
Seems like Minsk was very much on the table before revisionism started.
He was referring to a ceasefire and peace talks. There's not quoted text of him outright calling Minsk and lots of quotes of him stating he's not going to follow Minsk.
Go ahead and show me quotes from him saying he won't follow Minsk during his election campaign.
I gave you three links that look critically point by point over his campaign election promises showing where he's failed.
I asked you to provide a quote from Zelensky during his campaign where he says he's not going to implement Minsk.
A meaningful quote on an important foreign policy direction might be difficult to come by owing to this.
The point is that such a quote doesn't exist because Zelensky did promise to implement Minsk and to normalize relations with Russia. That's why he had so much popular support. When Zelensky got in power he basically did a 180 on the platform.
Got it. Thanks.
say what?
You’re using an incredibly naive, reductive, and highly cropped version of history if you really think that. Or, you’re arguing in bad faith. Tankies often try to pull the latter, but it’s pretty easy to spot.
I'm literally the opposite by focusing on the history that led up to the conflict and the role that west played in creating the conditions for it. The incredibly naive, reductive, and highly cropped version of history is the claim that Russia just decided to invade Ukraine out of the blue and nothing could've been done to avoid that. The fact that you're a grown ass adult using the word tankie says everything I need to know about you though.
You’re scoping the relevant historical interval to begin at 1917. I’m scoping the relevant historical interval to begin at 482. You’re taking a highly targeted and very obviously biased view of the situation.
You're scoping the historical interval before anything resembling Ukraine existed, and that has zero relation to the current geopolitical conflict between US and Russia where Ukraine is being used as a proxy. Somehow, you think that's a coherent point you've made.
Beg to differ
😂
Don't be so dismissive; it goes even deeper:
How do you know it wasn't the Russians what did it?
Ruzzia exited in 4000BCE and Putler killed all the Ukramians 👶👶👶
😄
Jesus. Fucking. Christ. This is like fascist mysticism. How fucking hard do you have work to rationalize your Russophobia?
Redtea is taking the piss.
Phew 😅 I didn't know if I'd gone too far with that one.
The fact that it's indistinguishable from reactionary talking points does warrant freagle's response, though.
How is 1917 to 2023 highly targeted?