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The American Justice System
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 31 May 2024
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I hate Trump with a passion but I'll play devil's advocate here.
Not all felonies are equal. And I bet all of you have different feelings about different convictions. For some, bribing a pornstar to keep quiet about an affair just doesn't seem like a big thing, a morally ultra wrong thing, something that would disquality you from running for presidency of a country.
Einstein cheated on his wives and was a huge asshole. That doesn't make his accomplishments as a scientist any less valid. Should we denounce the theory of relativity because he was morally or ethically corrupt?
Let me tell you Trump's story from the eyes of a Trump supporter here: The guy had an affair long time ago and he knew that this getting public would make him look bad despite being a genuine guy with good intentions for his country. So he did what every red blooded American would do, he asked the mistress not to tell anyone. He paid her for that. He had to get that money from somewhere so he had to falsify some books.
I understand how disgusting this is, but for an average Joe this can be very well understandable and morally forgivable. You might disagree (you might also know more details and context than the average Joe) but at the end of the day everyone's moral compass is different. And affair and hush money might just not be that big of a deal in the grant scheme of things. It might not be something that big that it should keep you from voting for a candidate. He didn't murder someone! after all.
And honestly, in some way I agree: Trump did so much bad shit that he should be in prison for, but the hush money thing is just not the Big One I want to see him convicted for.
As others pointed out, convicted felons should be able to run for presidency to avoid political imprisonment of opponents. This is literally what happens in Russia all the time. You want to run for something? Either you filed some paperwork wrong and cannot run as a candidate, or you get thrown into jail because of corruption or extremism or taxes, or you get assassinated. Often one follows the other.
Apart from that, I firmly believe in rehabilitation. Fuck Trump, but I'll be damned if in a couple of years some amazing dude could not be running for president because he was thrown to jail for drugs or stealing popcorn or some other crap when he was 18. Even for major crimes. If you have served your sentence and show remorse you should be able to integrate yourself back into society with somewhat of a clean sheet. We fuck the lives over of ex felons big time and it is such a shame.
I just lost brain cells. It's campaign finance violations, not an affair. Also, the government doesn't just get one shot to convict someone. It's not "the big one" but he's still under threat for other actions he chose to take.
Thank you.. I blame the media for this. Every article and talking head referred to it as the "hush money case" instead of "campaign finance fraud."
I absolutely agree. Please don't take my comment above as my actual opinion on Trump. My point is exactly this - for a Trump supporter it is easy to see this as the "hush money case" as you call it and just state it's not that big of a deal even when he's convicted. And the media is very much to blame for that.
I certainly appreciate a good devil's advocate argument. On the other hand, you're advocating for the devil.
Yeah I seem to do that a bit too well I guess. Apart from the last part about rehabilitation of criminals - which I do strongly believe in but which is unrelated to Trump, so it was probably misplaced in the comment - I just tried to answer the question "why do republicans still want to vote for Trump after this" to my best guess, trying to follow their absolutely flawed "logic". Let me be very clear: I do 100% think his conviction in this case is very important and severe and it is not "just an affair" or hush money. This is huge. At least to me.
I think somehow I made the impression that I actually think it's unimportant or not a big deal.
(Also I came to realize that scientific achievements and politics are probably not a good comparison. But then again, probably would fit the logic of an actual Trump supporter.)
It's all good - I saw what you were trying to do, I was just being a little snarky. I think understanding what his supporters think is quite important if we are actually trying to intervene and stave off violence.
You totally lost me with your arguement at "so he had to falsify some books".
Generally I agree that not all crimes are equal and that what you have written good be a good interpretation of how Trump supporters may trivialize the matter.
You held on longer than me. I was done when he asked wether we should reject the theory of relativity because einstein was asshole.
The way one views other people is irrelevant for physics. Its a cornerstone of politics.
Implying Trump has ever done anything even close to as beneficial as Einstein's contributions to physics. Or that a dead man's reputation is comparable with a corrupt fascist possibly winning power.
Yeah, but stealing classified documents to sell to the highest bidder is pretty fucking serious, and the clown judge that he hired did everything in her power to get that trial pushed til after the election when he could hopefully throw it out as commander in chief. The fact that they pulled that shit makes me want NY to throw the book at him.
Einstein made astonishing and real contributions to science. You cannot invalidate his contributions because they’re, well…scientific. Yeah, he did some shitty things, but those things were limited to the scope of his immediate family. Not apologizing for him, just offering this for comparison.
We have to make these adjustments any time we discuss the work of some artist, scientist, or leader we place on a pedestal.
The real test is how much damage they do to others. Infidelity? Well, it sucks, but it’s not uncommon (not dismissing it, just observing the fact). Did a scientist create a wheat variety that withstands pests and drought, feeding millions, yet also create a profitable chemical that has caused widespread cancer or environmental destruction? Maybe a popular, famous and groundbreaking artist was a real piece of shit and beat his wife and kids, say maybe putting one of the kids in a wheelchair? Maybe a world leader that’s done a great number of amazing things but still dropped bombs on civilians?
Now what? Is this the price of greatness? How much do you accept or turn a blind eye to? How much real harm did they do?
As far as felonies go, there’s obviously different levels, and that’s up to the law, and FBFW the judge…as we’ve seen affluenza and being a rich POS lets you skip out on a lot of punishment thanks to judge’s biases. Our “feels” shouldn’t be what counts.
You say you “hate trump with a passion”, but:
Say what?
As far as “moral compasses” go, I think it’s been pretty well established that the pro-trump morality is willfully ignorant and shored up with personal prejudices and hatreds. You have to deliberately choose not to believe in many things to support trump, and that means ignoring laws, the rights for and respect of your fellow humans, science, and many other things. Believing in a Flat Earth has the same validity as supporting trump.
I hope it was clear that the paragraph in italics was what I meant a Trump supporter would say, definitely not me. I most certainly don't regard him as a "genuine guy with good intentions for his country".
I 100% agree with you here.
Ok, gotcha. Thanks. Rereading it now makes sense.
Yeah I think I didn't point out the italics stuff because it seemed obvious in my head that this would be like a fake quote. I should have pointed it out. Now a huge bunch of people assume I somehow defend Trump, think his conviction doesn't matter, or think the thought process of a supporter makes sense/is correct. Of course it doesn't/isn't.
I also should not have put three different theses in one comment (the discrepancy between an individual as a moral person and his achievements, Trump supporters thinking - with the help of media - that it's not that big of a deal, and rehabilitation of felons/criminals). It got confusing. Not the best comment I've written in my life.
Anyway, my bad.
My man has been having affairs almost continuously since his first marriage.
Some say he has the best affairs I heard some people, many people, the best, people, say it.
Ok firstly, you missed out the part about getting spanked with a magazine which I particularly enjoy.
Secondly, he has shown absolutely no contrition and is extraordinarily likely to commit the same crime in a larger fashion if given the opportunity.