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submitted 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) by TemutheeChallahmet@hexbear.net to c/politics@hexbear.net

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[-] TemutheeChallahmet@hexbear.net 26 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

An open secret is that among the black upper middle class there is an overrepresentation of misogynistic/homophobic/racist/conspiratorial army guys, cops, Christian guys, Black Muslim/hotep guys. Also, well educated conservative African and Caribbean immigrants.

Leftists and liberals do not really want to acknowledge this and don't want to acknowledge that the tradition, discipline and asceticism such people live by enable them a good degree of social mobility in the US generally unhindered by direct racism. People love saying that the "culture not race" argument is racist but these black folks I am describing will be the first people making that argument and nodding along to it, because to them that is the reality. They fear "urban" people in the same way as any old white Karen.

Both Dems and leftists sort of target their broad strokes messaging toward a swathe of POC and LGBTQ+ people and this inevitably lets the GOP peel off socially conservative members of these groups for whom racism or discrimination aren't really major day to day issues but taxes and banning LGBT education from schools are.

If the libs were more unapologetic on their affirmative action messaging (AA benefits such groups I'm describing most) and maybe announced sweeping targeted neighborhood revitalization efforts that improved the assimilation of inner city black kids, or blocked property valuation discrimination, all while telling the socially conservative people in marginalized groups that they are expected to coexist with people whose lifestyles they dislike but will be left alone otherwise, they might claw back some of the vote. But you all are blind if you think that the only people calling wayward black teen boys/girls "hoodlums/ghetto" are white boomers--rather than every black person I have ever known who does not live in a metropolitan area, including the liberal ones.

Tl;Dr most leftists and liberals who fight for better outcomes for black Americans do not really know that many middle class black people closely and so sometimes fail to craft messaging as resonant to their material realities as the GOP does.

Source: have been dating the same black partner for 6 years, and their father is a successful Trump and Alex Jones loving rich guy.

[-] Angel@hexbear.net 25 points 2 months ago

As a person with a devout Catholic, conservative, Afro-Caribbean family, I literally have heard them espouse the whole "We're better than those working-class black Americans because our culture is different!" line of thinking on multiple occasions.

[-] TemutheeChallahmet@hexbear.net 17 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I mean it is myopic but I get how it arises. If a suburban Afro-Carribbean lady goes downtown and is sexually harassed by some overfamiliar black dude with "no home training" it will color her perceptions of working class black Americans in the same way it would shape a suburban white person's perception. And for black immigrants to America and suburban black Americans things like code switching, having non-stereotypically-black hobbies or fraternizing with white/non-black people extensively are not inaccessible or taboo things, so such people more easily navigate spaces where jobs and opportunities for wealth are more plentiful.

It's myopic to pin all this on Black American "culture" of course because Black Americans are a people who have never had sovereignty or been the stewards of their collective destiny, and most of the "negative" behaviors blamed on "culture" are downstream from generations of targeted segregation/economic deprivation. But I do think if the white liberal/leftist response when say, there is a viral video of a group of black kids beating on a white kid is only silence, apologism, or tiptoeing, then the angry conservative response even while racially charged is sometimes actually closer to what middle class black Americans/Black immigrants actually want to say about such an event and it's participants.

There needs to be a frank but forward moving vision involving some sort of direct reparations and mending the faults caused by historical race riots/redlining, to actually resolve key issues surrounding "Foundational Black American" neighborhoods.

[-] Angel@hexbear.net 14 points 2 months ago

One thing I can most certainly tell you is that, when my internalized racism was at its peak, being "not stereotypically black" played a role in it. I felt like both black people and white people were so focused on my race that they forgot that I'm an individual.

I'd get called an "Oreo" and that kind of shit for something as harmless as liking metal. I couldn't just be a metalhead who happens to be black. Nah, that must raise eyebrows. Having gone through such massive amounts of internalized racism, I definitely know some aspects of where it can come from.

It took a major paradigm shift in how I was perceiving being black in America for me to overcome it. The stereotypes were just one aspect of why my internalized racism got so bad, and it wasn't even the biggest reason.

I also saw posts by reactionary queer people (think /lgbt/ types) that reinforced the notion that POC are more likely to be queerphobic. This effectively led me to think, "If I'm queer and black, then black people are my enemy, and I should hate them."

Nowadays, my thinking has certainly changed. It's no longer "Black people are more homophobic, so I should hate my own race because I'm queer." It's more "White people will be racist to me, even the queer ones, and cishet people will be queerphobic to me, even the black ones." It seemed as if I was pinning black homo/transphobia on race instead of just the fact that it's black cishet people in particular being this way, just as white cishet people often do. However, I never got any shit or any kind of infighting from my fellow black queer people. Even beyond racism, forms of gatekeeping like transmedicalism and enbyphobia in the trans community are things I've only seen white trans people commit.

Definitely based for acknowledging that class seems to trump race in these circumstances, even if people don't realize it. There seems to be a real lack of awareness of how all of this shit ties together in the grand scheme of things. Myopic, as you said.