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submitted 2 months ago by fossilesque@mander.xyz to c/science_memes@mander.xyz

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[-] propter_hog@hexbear.net 9 points 2 months ago

*fewer

[-] abfarid@startrek.website 5 points 2 months ago

You said (almost) the same thing as the top comment, an hour earlier, too, yet you only have 3 updoots, while they have 60+. What gives? Is it because you're from hexbear and most simply don't see your comment?

[-] propter_hog@hexbear.net 6 points 2 months ago

I have decided that must be the case; it usually happens to me when I venture out of hexbear, haha.

[-] OpenStars@startrek.website 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Lemmy.World is the largest instance, and they preemptively defederated from hexbear.net a year ago, citing several examples of user comments that they wanted to protect their own userbase from.

Many other large instances have done similarly - another one is programming.dev (statement), although in their case if was merely to prevent one-sided conversations after hexbear.net defederated from them. The funny part of that story is how the admins took a vote, which indicated an unwillingness to defederate (27 to 19) but then did it anyway:-).

Anyway, many users of hexbear.net have made quite the reputation for themselves around the Fediverse, to the point where MANY instances felt the need to defederate from the entire instance (think: Truth Social but claiming to be leftist). And at this point, many users on it seem proud of that or at least consider it part of the cost of traversing the wider Fediverse using an account based on hexbear.net.

[-] abfarid@startrek.website 3 points 2 months ago

Yeah, I know they have been defederated to pieces, albeit not in as much detail as you provided, I was just trying to confirm that that was the reason, to better understand how federation works. Our instance has lately been blocking some of their communities, too.

I don't quite understand the vote results, especially in conjunction with the post content, I don't see any ties, but I was most surprised by the fact that they voted to defederate from blahaj.zone? Isn't hexbear rabidly pro-inclusion, in particular regarding trans people?

[-] OpenStars@startrek.website 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

A summary of what happened between Blahaj.Zone and Hexbear.Net

Ada, an instance admin of Blahaj.Zone is extremely welcoming and inclusive - I have always actively looked forward to reading anything they say wherever/whenever I encounter such across the Fediverse, and have never been disappointed so far. They, like the instance overall, are the real deal(s).

Unfortunately, hexbear.net merely pretends to be thus, but like everything else they do it is a farce while their real goal is to be argumentative. They are actually quite open about this if you read past the initial prepared statements (or even read the official sidebar of the_dunk_tank) - on the instance they call it "dunking on" people, or "struggle sessions", and no matter how many users, mods, and even admins/devs they turn away as a result (as that vote post mentions), they cannot seem to help themselves, even outside of their echo chambers where that is allowed & actively encouraged. Even/especially when their own admins beg & plead - and yes, also explicitly command - their userbase to FUCKING STOP... they will not. And so far I haven't even mentioned the brigading... no matter how deeply I delve into this, there is always more.

Defederation is - and should be - always a last resort. That said, it is necessary sometimes, b/c as it has been said the only thing that can never be tolerated is intolerance - e.g. if cancer cells refuse to inhibit their own growth, then it must be cut out for the sake of the rest of the body to live. Also, as you see, it was actually hexbear.net that initiated the defederation from most of those places not the other way around - Lemmy.World did not wait to be offered the chance to be on the receiving end, but for programming.dev, Blahaj.Zone, and Lemm.ee (which was kicked off but later refederated, read also from hexbear) it was hexbear.net's choice, and the reverse defederation was only in friendliness to avoid dangling one-sided conversations where users on their platforms could talk to those on hexbear but the latter would not even know that there was a message awaiting their receipt, and subsequent response - as you are asking about here but in reverse.

Startrek.website and mander.xyz tend to have their own focus and not attract all of this drama, hence why someone from hexbear.net can see the post and also comment on it, but users on e.g. lemmy.world, programming.dev, or lemmy.blahaj.zone would not see that comment. The hexbear user is thus shouting into the void, with respect to those instances, though not to ours who can see both.

The sad fact (imho) is that new visitors to the Fediverse will never have any of this explained to them - instead, they have to do something like personally make the mistake of replying to a post in ChapoTrapHouse, found by sorting your feed by All rather than Subscribed, and then after WEEKS and WEEKS and WEEKS of batshit insane responses that do not end despite zero response back from said user, they finally will know what to expect from hexbear.net: overall (as a pattern) they enjoy argumentation, do not constrain themselves to that process being logical or the statements to be factual, but they sure do enjoy the "dunking on" process, so long as it is delivered from them to others, though obviously not in return. And from the other side, users of hexbear.net will notice how very few people "react" to their posts made in those communities they can see outside of their instance - essentially for them the Fediverse contains fewer users, from their perspective. And then from our side, we see the drama between their sides, more so than even they do themselves.

[-] abfarid@startrek.website 4 points 2 months ago

When I first joined the Fediverse, back when Reddit 3rd party apps got nuked, I joined lemmy.world. While I didn't see Hexbear post, comments, etc., but I did see plenty of comments of people mentioning them and warning about them. So by the time I switched to startrek.website (don't remember why I decided to leave l.w, must have been due to some defederations) and finally encountered the mythical beast, I was already thoroughly prepared for it. So I would say, in general, newbies shouldn't be entirely shocked to encounter a tankie, as they are mentioned a lot.

And tbh, I prefer to stay federated with Hexbear, because among all the mindless circlejerk propaganda they will sometimes point out a fair criticism about the western culture/politics that I haven't considered. In addition, as a half Ukrainian who was living in Kyiv at the time of invasion, I prefer to know what kind of ideas and misinformation is being circulated on the other side.
Hexbear wouldn't even be that bad if they just stopped pretending that only western empires are evil, and stopped bootlicking the leaders of the pseudo-communist countries. A LOT more people would agree with them if they were only anti-western, instead of also being pro-dictators. But then they wouldn't be tankies, I suppose.

Btw, Hexbear reminds me a lot of r/GamingCircleJerk. They also have a semi-noble cause, but express it in such a way that rubs EVERYONE the wrong way, not just the "Capital-G Gamers" who they are rightfully mocking. Because of that, r/GCJ has caused several site-wide dramas and inconvenienced people. They both also operate in this constant state of maximum sarcasm, so you can never tell if they are saying is a hyperbole or they are being serious but insane.

Regarding Blahaj.zone, I haven't interacted much with them, but I one day discovered that I'm banned from their c/196 because "Transphobe". It wasn't even due to an interaction with that community directly. In a completely different instance, I think it was lemmy.world, I commented with a question about why a user's comment was called being transphobic. I then got mocked and eventually banned. So Idk if it was mod of that specific community or whole instance. I seem to be able to interact with Blahaj post from other communities though.

And thank you for these massive posts. You seem to be a proper Lemmy historian, might need to remember your username for future potential inquiries.

[-] OpenStars@startrek.website 2 points 2 months ago

I think that - like porn, receiving catcalls as you walk down the street, and ~~spam~~ marketing solicitations - being able to interact with people who ignore consent should be opt-IN, rather than have to be opt-OUT. I see that you have a valid reason for wanting to hear what they have to say... but for myself I almost left the Fediverse upon stumbling into ChapoTrapHouse, and again another similar incident in lemmygrad.ml. Whereas now, I have blocked both of those plus also Lemmy.ml, and I kid you not, >99% of the toxicity is instantly gone from my feed. The latter also blocks some innocent people too, who may try to discourse with me and not realize that I will not receive a "notification" about it, but I have made my peace with that, since on the whole I do not want to make time for that shit in my life.

On Reddit I used to pride myself that I had never blocked anyone - and as a mod it wouldn't have helped anyway - but now I value my time and sanity more I guess:-). Seriously, it takes a mental toll: it makes you more defensive, more cagey, less likely to speak for fear of being misunderstood and pounced upon, and when you do speak your own answers become more snarky, in closer alignment with even if nowhere near the extreme that theirs does. I felt it was affecting my communication at my irl job, and was ready to leave social media altogether even before Rexodus happened, and I found here. Fortunately Kbin.social showed me a friendlier side of the Fediverse, before it went defunct and I saw the rest. Now, literally every single person that I tell about Lemmy irl gives me dirty looks the next time we talk, citing the high volume of extremist content here, calling for literal and bloody violence. Forcing new users to be exposed to this content as being opt-out rather than opt-in is going to SEVERELY hinder the survivability of Lemmy, much less growth.

Plus, as you've seen, it leads to things like those communities being banned outright, even from instances such as this one that haven't gone the full defederation route. It would be SO MUCH friendlier to simply "label" the content... but that would take extra work effort from the developers, plus who would write up those labels (I think it should be the very communities themselves - but they haven't taken such an initiative so far, e.g. in their sidebar areas, or even to follow the rules that their very own admins commanded them to do) and anyway here we are, so we work with the tools we have. Which are at least better than they used to be, and improving all the time:-). One down-side is that every instance that gets defederated leads to another one receiving a bunch of new alts so it merely shifts the line. Right now that is lemmy.ml, but with so many people blocking them these days it will soon shift to midwest.social, and then from there... As I guess you know, these are people who refuse to follow the rules - even their own - yet demand to be HEARD, the consent of those who do not want to listen be damned.

Blaze knows like 1000x more than me - e.g. they introduced me to that !newtolemmy@lemmy.ca community, and afterwards we both keep telling anyone who will listen about it:-). Speaking of, they will tell you the same: check out lemm.ee as a server that basically does not defederate from anyone. I checked their modlog and don't see any communities removed from hexbear.net, and both https://lemm.ee/c/chapotraphouse@hexbear.net and https://lemm.ee/c/the_dunk_tank@hexbear.net work. If you want something that sits solidly on neutral ground to survey all around you, that one is the hot pick right now. Though it is far from the only one - e.g. another is https://reddthat.com, still another is lemmy.zip, and there's others too. All of those have even remained federated with lemmygrad.ml, as well as hexbear.net. Ofc you can always go visit hexbear.net itself too - either with an alt or if you don't want to vote or talk, without an account. There are many paths available to you:-). Ironically lemmy.ml itself would not be ideal, b/c it has defederated from lemmygrad.ml (I don't know why:-).

196 sounds like a simple misunderstanding, though exactly what we are talking about here: they had a golden opportunity to listen patiently, assess where you were coming from with your question, and if you were "wrong" then to educate you about the situation - to all of which you (as I would in your place) extremely likely would have said THANK YOU, whether they managed to cause you to change your mind or not, for e.g. spending the time and engaging in that proper, civil conversation. Fwiw, I've never heard Ada (the admin) fly off the handle like that, and conversely have talked about being the way I described above instead. So I'm sure it was just a power-tripping mod of that single community - yes we have those here too, that was not merely a thing of our shared Reddit past:-P. I too get weird vibes from it and it is the only - and first - community that I always banned whenever I made a new account somewhere on the Fediverse. I hope that did not sour your experience with the rest of that instance... but if so, it is their loss. Though like my own bad experiences with ChapoTrapHouse and lemmygrad.ml, it is good that both of us did not simply abandon the entire concept of the Fediverse, b/c there really are good people here, even though there's also a lot of noise and children's chatter about as well.

Anyway I am glad that you managed to solve this mystery - of hexbear.net not being defederated, but those certain communities residing on it having been removed - that was indeed seemed quite strange to me!:-)

[-] abfarid@startrek.website 1 points 2 months ago

I suppose you have a point. If Hexbear wasn't defederated from other big instances, then they would be more prominent in smaller instances that federate with them too. And when there's a lot of them, everywhere becomes a circlejerk. I mean, both Reddit and Lemmy are circlejerk-y by nature, but at least the circlejerks are usually less harmful than what HB does. I personally haven't had the pleasure to deal with lemmygrad, I think, but lemmy.ml seems just slightly harder lefty Lemmy, I haven't so far seen anything extreme, so Idk if they are toxic.
And again, I think the entire nature of this up/downvote-based media is somewhat toxic. People routinely interpret comments in the worst possible way and pile on it.

The c/196 was unfortunate. It is my only ever ban (so far), as I'm an extremely reasonable person. I have to say that my initial reaction was that, indeed, that instance doesn't want to have a conversation, but have everyone automatically accept whatever they think is right. But if you're saying that the community is an outlier, I believe you.

Your listing of alternative instances was helpful as I'm too lazy to look around, and would likely not found that info on my own. So far our instance is good enough, I think, but I'll consider the alternatives. Thank you for that, too.

Btw, if you're blocking all Hexbear stuff, how did you find my comment? It's a response to a Hexbear user. So you see their comment as well?

[-] OpenStars@startrek.website 2 points 2 months ago

Lemmy.ml is a complicated story. The admins include some of the chief developers of the Lemmy software, and so e.g. !Fediverse!fediverse@lemmy.ml is there, as is c/firefox with ~4.2k monthly users, whereas in comparison firefox at lemmy.world has about a tenth of that.

The admins are known to kick people from the entire instance, for e.g. claiming that the Tiananmen Square massacre did happen (you read that right - did, not "did not", but did). So it is extremely totalitarian behavior, with a set of "alternate facts" that they echo around amongst one another, with little to no quarter offered to those who believe in "facts" that the leaders have not approved. Some people avoid the instance altogether purely for this reason, which seems similar to me to the reason(s) that many of us left Reddit in the first place - e.g. in solidarity against Huffman and what he did & said to app developers, and the whole "landed gentry" and such.

But more important is their complement of users. Some of them are great people to talk to - others not so much. On the whole, for someone on an instance that has already blocked lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net, blocking lemmy.ml can remove >90% of all the spammy comments that one tends to receive on the Fediverse. I am saying that well over 90% of the time when someone gives me the most batshit INSANE reply that left my mouth dropping open for just how stupid it was... I looked and found that it was someone from the lemmy.ml instance. I think being used to batting those "alternative facts" around back-and-forth, they are very much aware that use of power, which for a normal user (not a mod or admin) mostly means taking a stance of hostility, often "wins" arguments - from their POV anyway, e.g. when the recipient stops responding - more so than actual logical argumentation. And they are correct, in the sense that the only way for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing to stop them, so by cowing people into submission they seem to want to manage to assert their will upon everyone around them (which I am calling "stupidity" b/c it presumes that I am somehow not aware of a third choice - not to merely agree or disagree with them, either of which I am expected to express via a reply to their comment, but to bow out from the conversation entirely).

Again, not everyone from those instances is that way, just... that it is a trend (a fairly major one). I should mention that some of that is likely due to the fact that it is a large server, like lemmy.world. In fact, I argued with people against blocking it for many months, but finally relented, and now I truly enjoy the peace that has come from it. Now, the language that I would use is that if someone were to do such, it would cost them something - some potentially good interactions, and some communities are located there - but on the whole it may be worth the cost, depending on what the user is looking for. It is like walking through an open sewer - maybe you want to do it occasionally, to keep tabs on what is there? But it sure is nice to walk away from that sometimes too:-).

I don't know so much about the other "communities" on blahaj. I'm just saying that Ada seems very reasonable, and I've never felt unwelcomed there anytime I've spoken in a thread. Perhaps it was merely an overzealous mod of that specific community, power-tripping or just flat tired of their responsibility and not living up to whatever "should" have been done in that case - which since your participation in any of the other communities on that instance were not affected, seems certain to be the case. Tbf, moderation across the entire Fediverse is extremely spotty - and due to the lower volume of posts, mods often do so for multiple communities, which can then strain their resources to keep up. Just block that community, when / if ever your ban expires, and move on and enjoy the rest of what the Fediverse has to offer!:-)

Btw, if you’re blocking all Hexbear stuff, how did you find my comment? It’s a response to a Hexbear user. So you see their comment as well?

That is an excellent question - and you said you wanted to learn how this all works, so here goes. When one instance "defederates" another instance, it removes the entirety of all communication with them - e.g. no communities, no users, no posts, no comments/replies/notifications, no up/down-votes, nothing. And I think when a user blocks someone... here I am not fully certain, but I think it's a lot like that - e.g. I think the blocked person cannot downvote you anymore. And their comment replies are collapsed, or simply not present (you can always view them as read-only by visiting another instance where you are logged out, usually opening the multi-colored fediverse icon in a new tab will do so). However, when a user "blocks" an instance, it is the weakest of any of these. Yes I can still see their comment, I can upvote it (I rarely ever downvote anything at all - certainly less than once per day and most often less than once per week), and I can reply. Also, it prevents any communities from that instance from showing up in my "All" feed. They can still up/downvote me though, and vice versa. The main difference is that if a user from that instance replies back to me, I will not receive a "notification" about that event (UNLESS they specifically tag me by name). This is a form of protection against the sort of "brigading" that they are known to enjoy - especially in a community such as ChapoTrapHouse where that is literally the goal of it existing (it literally says so, right in the sidebar, though for a new user who merely sees a post pop up in their feed, they would not know that - and that btw is my major beef with it, not that I wish that it did not exist, but that it would be labelled properly, especially relevant to new users who the stories abound where they/we stumbled into them unawares, and if we managed to not leave the entire Fediverse afterwards, we at least do not recall the hazing experience fondly).

I can, however, come back to this thread later and peruse it, see their reply, and reply back to them. I have done such many times. It is an impediment but not a full blocker to a conversation, for people from instances that I have user-blocked, but that our instance has not fully defederated from. I often engage in conversations with users of hexbear.net and/or lemmy.ml - they are not all toxic assholes (nor am I never one myself I would wager:-) - it is just that on balance, I find that the benefits of user-blocking that instance strongly outweigh the detractions. Which ofc would be a different equation for you, as you have a different purpose in mind, especially for this as an alt account from your lemmy.world one, but anyway I hope this insight into how defederation and user blocking works helps further your understanding of the Fediverse:-).

[-] abfarid@startrek.website 2 points 2 months ago

At this point, I suppose lemmy.world account is the alt one. Haven't touched it in months.

Thank you for all the shared knowledge!

[-] OpenStars@startrek.website 1 points 2 months ago

I don't like the layout here with v0.19.5 as well as I do the older v0.19.3 - especially the total vote display being separated from the up and down arrows - but if this is working for you then I am glad!:-)

[-] Lenins_Cat_Reincarnated@hexbear.net 2 points 2 months ago

Hexbear has very tight moderation to make sure it’s a comfortable place for minorities and people who don’t like interacting with racism, misogyny, transphobia etc. I browse blahaj.zone occasionally and its moderation is just not good. The trans communities attract chasers which makes me not want to post there, and in 196 I regularly come across posts that are misogynistic or transphobic and have been up for days. I always report them and they often (not always) get deleted after like a day, which in my opinion is too late because the harm has been done (a 2 day old post should have been removed whenever a mod came across it).

On hexbear I’ve not seen posts that were so blatantly misogynistic or transphobic, and posts get removed much faster. This is why many trans people in our community don’t want to federate with blahaj.

[-] abfarid@startrek.website 1 points 2 months ago

Idk if you see @OpenStars' comment, but he provided a link to the summary from blahaj.zone's perspective. It does mention an incident with c/196, but it's not the whole picture.

In short, users from Blahaj.Zone (as well as other Lemmy instances) were complaining about Hexbear users' obnoxious behavior, "Hexbear users calling people “libs” as an insult, denying crimes of Russia and China, denying the crimes of Stalin."
Users started asking to defederate from Hexbear and admin of Blahaj.Zone opened a thread to talk about it, which Hexbear users attacked and spammed the thread with images. Then, Hexbear user complained about c/196, that their comments were being removed, "comments that called out the use of the r-word and other call-outs". At which point, Hexbear preemptively defederated from Blahaj, mostly citing the incident above.

I linked the whole thing, so you can see the details for yourself. But at the end of the day, I would say that the incident started with Hexbear users being Hexbear users.

But also, what are "chasers"?

[-] Lenins_Cat_Reincarnated@hexbear.net 2 points 2 months ago

I was referring to the last time we had a discussion on hexbear about a possible refederation with blahaj which was a few months ago. The drama around the defederation wasn’t really relevant for that discussion as it was a long time ago. Blahaj’s admin is open to federation with hexbear because we have a huge trans community and it would be nice to connect them with the community in blahaj, but due to the issues I mentioned it’s not really in the best interest of our trans community to federate.

Chasers are people who fetishise trans people. Trans spaces often attract people who won’t stop talking about our body parts which gets very uncomfortable.

[-] OpenStars@startrek.website 1 points 2 months ago

@Blaze@reddthat.com Do you know why people on startrek.website cannot see certain communities on e.g. hexbear.net?

I did not think it was even possible to block specific communities from an instance. I thought what Farid might be referring to is a change where some communities are allowed to be set to "local-only", so that only those with an account specifically from that instance can make posts there. Then again, https://hexbear.net/c/chapotraphouse says that its Visibility is set to "Public" (even though I thought they said that they looked forward to changing it - did that never happen?).

Various methods of linking that I've tried - explained in this guide post (btw @abfarid@startrek.website that is a neat community to subscribe to!:-) - such as https://startrek.website/c/the_dunk_tank@hexbear.net does not work for me, and the bang syntax never auto-completes it? Even this kind of searching https://startrek.website/search?q=%21chapotraphouse&type=Communities&listingType=All&page=1&sort=TopAll for the community name does not work either (despite ChapoTrapHouse specifically saying that it should in its sidebar), nor clicking Communities, select All rather than Local, and type e.g. "chapo". So it is not merely that nobody has subscribed yet - this instance seems somehow to really not be aware of that community?

Perhaps this is a (new?) style of "partial defederation", where not the users but the communities on an instance are excluded. But that cannot be right either, b/c e.g. https://startrek.website/c/Technology@hexbear.net works (it has no visible posts, though that is normal behavior whenever nobody has ever subscribed to it before from a particular instance, in this case star trek, but if one of us subscribed then roughly a day later the posts should be there - for comparison, https://startrek.website/c/Technology@lemmy.world also works and shows the posts). Though neither https://startrek.website/c/chapotraphouse@hexbear.net nor https://startrek.website/c/the_dunk_tank@hexbear.net work. So some communities on hexbear.net seem to be selectively excluded from federation on startrek.website.

To be clear I am not complaining - this is actually a helpful protection against users going into those unawares, as in: if they refuse to mark their communities as local then they should not be surprised when others make that choice for them - though I am curious.:-)

[-] abfarid@startrek.website 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

The communities you specified have been blocked on our instance. That's what I was talking about, they are listed in the modlog as "Removed":

[-] OpenStars@startrek.website 1 points 2 months ago

Oh that's fascinating. Again I did not even know that was possible - it looks like someone, but a mod, NOT an admin? - removed it a month ago, then 13 days ago unremoved it and then removed it again. These must be some new features involving the mod user tools from 0.19.5, bc I thought that previously that was not possible.

Also, the mod log may not be telling the full truth there - bc who would such a "mod" be, like how could there be a mod of Chapotraphouse of hexbear.net from startrek.website? - it does seem rather something that only an admin should be able to do. The totalitarian Lemmy.ml devs routinely hide stuff from the modlog though so it makes sense that this too is merely what it says but not what happened.

It looks like you'd have to talk to the Star Trek admins to find out more.

The main page sidebar says they are at a Mastodon instance though.

[-] Nakoichi@hexbear.net 2 points 2 months ago

(think: Truth Social but claiming to be leftist).

This is disingenuous a hell and just some horseshoe theory bullshit where you insinuate we are the same as fascists because you feel uncomfortable with any criticism of liberalism from anyone to your left.

[-] OpenStars@startrek.website 0 points 2 months ago

It is a fact that it is my opinion that hexbear users are (a) overly aggressive, (b) spout meaningless nonsense more often than not, and therefore (c) a waste of my time. However, you are just as equally free to hold your own opinion. Have a great day!