this post was submitted on 05 Dec 2024
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Chapotraphouse

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[–] 666@lemmygrad.ml 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

I think they're actually telling you to look at past examples of the propaganda of the deed and how they pale to mass movement.

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

My take is that both feed into one another. The larger a mass movement gets the more propaganda of the deed happens and you literally can't stop it, people WILL do it and you must incorporate it into your plans one way or another because you can't stop it.

The more frequent it becomes, the closer you are to the real revolutionary moment.

[–] 666@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yes and no. I don't think they "feed" each other more as they are a result of the same conditions.

That would be nice, but 15 years from now if another Kaczynski type rises up I don't think P.S.L taking credit or supporting the action will help them in anyway unless they already have achieved "mass-movement". We only have a few big parties that could achieve something like this. Understanding why this is is far more important than preparing to go Punisher, at least in my opinion.

But you are right, I can't stop anyone from doing anything. I agree with that.

If anything, them existing as they do now is a mutually beneficial agreement. I also said before that in my opinion, there are more effective ways of "direct action." Sabotage is what comes to mind immediately. I said earlier that destroying a clean-room does a lot more damage than icing a CEO. Perhaps sabotage and other actions like this can be under a separate militant wing. There's precedence for that.

[–] AmericaDelendaEst@hexbear.net 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

what if like, things didn't exist in vacuums, what if "individuals" and "lone wolfs" weren't actual things but rather framings of things, and instead these people and their actions existed within, as a part of, the system, rather than separate from it?? gosh, could a mass movement ever be influenced by any sort of propaganda, in the same way these individuals' actions were influenced by the system within which they lived?????

[–] Runcible@hexbear.net 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

could you rephrase this in the context of coconuts?

[–] AmericaDelendaEst@hexbear.net 10 points 1 year ago

no im allergic

[–] 666@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Nothing exists in a vacuum. I said if people want to go ice a CEO, they should do it. My point is that we've had evidence of this, which yes, in 1910s-1920s russia and 1800s America, that it is something that grows more common with revolutionary sentiment. You can do these things; but they have almost never influenced a mass movement.

“We believe that even a hundred regicides can never produce so stimulating and educational an effect as this participation of tens of thousands of working people in meetings where their vital interests and the links between politics and these interests are discussed, and as this participation in a struggle, which really rouses ever new and “untapped” sections of the proletariat to greater political consciousness, to a broader revolutionary struggle.” ~ Lenin

You aren't getting scoffed at or told not to do it or that it is a bad thing necessarily OR that it cannot co-exist with a mass movement. People are just pointing to the history and theory we have on the topic and specifically the quote above is especially relevant. Lenin held adventurism in a bit more disdain, but I think conditions are different in every nation.

Russia in the turn of the last century is far different than America now. Does that mean history will change entirely? No. I don't doubt that this will become more common. It was propaganda of the deed-day every day in early America. If anything, they were successfully able to manufacture an effective "red scare" from the actions of anarchists then. Hell, one even shot a president, Leon Czolgosz. What did that do? McKinley's death is a joke now because they didn't use the X-Ray machine that was present at his assassination. That is in reference to American history.

"gosh, could a mass movement ever be influenced by any sort of propaganda, in the same way these individuals’ actions were influenced by the system within which they lived???"

No one is denying that. They're saying how it ends up. If someone wants to sacrifice their life entirely to try and influence a heavily crippled working class and labor aristocracy in America, they're free to do it and people will probably cheer for it. The problem is America barely has a cognizant "mass-movement". and instead some powerful socialist parties. We're getting there, though.