this post was submitted on 21 Jul 2025
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Chapotraphouse
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I'm not going to watch a 7 minute video of some nerd ranting if anyone wants to post whatever Zohran actually did
he said a while ago that israel could exist as one state with equal rights, which I steelman as fundamentally not being israel at that point, like how a post-prison abolition society would still detain serial murderers somehow but in a way fundamentally unlike the current carceral system.
more recently he slipped on discouraging "globalize the [uprising]" because a bunch of zionists have made a protracted effort to get liberals to piss their pants about the scary brown word "intifada" even though the arabic language materials from the holocaust museum used to call it the "warsaw ghetto intifada"
mr empanada has no tolerance for either of these concessions.
They changed the word from "intifada" to "mukawama" , meaning "resistance".
wonder what the M in "Hamas" stands for, L bozos
Frankly, I think puting some distance between himself and the phrase is probably just canny politics. Why die on the hill of flowery language (that you never used in the first place)? Now they can't really repeat this 'criticism' without looking kinda silly.
I think its kinda telling that BadEmpanada is basing this prediction for how Zohran would be in office on a few recent media statements and not, say, the five years he was in the New York State Assembly. I also think there's some distinction between Entryism to the Democratic party on a national level vs on a local level. Sure, AOC doesn't use her national platform to challenge the powerful status quo. That's a valid criticism. But this is a mayoral election - the goal here is different. It's not about challenging power, so much as wielding it - using the local levers to give a concrete demonstration to people that yes, something better is possible.
From your perspective perhaps, but this is a severe, severe misunderstanding of liberal rhetoric if you think Zohran put himself in a better position. They can still point to the hours of time he spent in interviews defending his position and easily claim -- and if we're being charitable to Zohran, there's truth to this -- that Zohran is basically just lying to try to get out of being interrogated on this issue, but his underlying beliefs about opposition to Israel's government are identical. Basically all he succeeded in doing is helping his right opposition paint him as perfidious while looking like a coward to his leftist supporters. I give it a week before rightists say that he's doing "taqiyya" and, cartoon Islamophobia aside, the most hopeful position is literally that those people are right!
“They can’t call him a jihadist now without looking ridiculous!!!”
i completely disagree tactically. never play defense. Zohran's strength is that he offers positive things.
it's also empanada's second channel so really nobody should be watching it or taking it seriously but we came from the chapo subreddit so whatever.
I think playing defense here would be defending "globalize the intifada". It... isn't really an actionable phrase. It has nothing to do with their platform.
And what if people want to see someone standing for something with rigour? What many are claiming is that the "bravado" about really held positions is how you win. I don't always agree with that, but here I do. And losing while maintaining your positions is more likely to move more people left. Giving in and then losing is disastrous for the left. It's why it's a strategic failure, I think, to have not held his position strongly
I just disagree entirely about it making anything more difficult at all to hold his position. It's easy to relate it to material positions that he holds through small rhetorical tricks and then he will be doing both good through rhetoric and through his material policies. For New York his material policies are important, but everyone knows he's more than that at this moment. And he's giving that up too easily. Now his failure is a strategic loss instead of also being a possible strategic step forward. And his winning is less of a strategic win than if he'd told them to fuck off.
Het didn't even have to say the word intifada, just ignore it as a stupid attack and reiterate that he supports 1 state of equal rights in historic Palestine/current Israel.
Disagree on Corbyn, he gave in immediately and constantly, trying to appease the Zionist cries for investigations instead of dismissing them. (He could've done a real check that there weren't tons of real anti-Semitism without the rhetorical loss he gave immediately)
I didn't say it was the only way to win the election, I said it's the way that his success or loss can matter most for a broader movement.
It seems I'm arguing why rhetoric can have material impact, and you're arguing that the rhetoric will be blamed afterwards. The unfalsifiability is exactly why it'll be used like that for or against a broader left movement whether you want it to or not, so might as well play your hand well
Why does that disagree with me? To be a national movement with any power, it can't do these simple rhetorical concessions for nothing. It's a terrible strategy if that's the goal. People want someone representing the popular opinion of leftists about Israel, not someone willing to concede when pushed hard enough. That's how you lose that cycle
He hasn't lost any election, but he lost a strategic public image for no reason because he was likely to win the race either way! And now, if he loses, he didn't even prove anything about how terrible the propaganda machine is to expand the grassroots organizing! The energy will leave if he does anything more. I care way less now that I feel like he's slowly turning into Corbyn. I hope he can flip that, but the energy will dissipate because of such a thing. We've seen it often. It doesn't make him a DNC sellout, I disagree with comparing him to AOC. I think Corbyn is much more relevant, and he didn't learn the lesson. He's a radical that thinks downplaying that is strategic instead of uplaying it, and it won't help in the battle but will lose the war if he stays on that path. So hopefully hearing that you think we're more aligned than before?
I hate streamers holy shit, why does anyone watch them.