Do Christians actually believe that the world is sinful? They are some of the most delusional "LIFE IS BEAUTIFUL AKSHUALLY" toxic positivity copers on earth. Or those that acknowledge sin just blame it on individual sinners and/or minority groups. Never the world (gods creation) itself.

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 26 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Huh? The point of original sin is that humans are, by our nature, sinful beings who can only become redeemed through God and sacrifice to God (which then is fulfilled by Christ's Passion). Whether you look at it from the perspective of individuals or the collective world/society it's bad.

It's generally the case that Christianity has a pessimistic outlook (like Buddhism), because it holds that you only receive payment for being good in the afterlife. Before then, you're just suffering in the injustice that comes inherently and inexorably from being fallen creatures.

The reason for the toxic positivity from certain Christians, especially in regard to mental illness like depression, is that they believe that suffering is a necessary part of the path toward salvation. IMO it's an error, but it's not dissimilar from accelerationism as a leftist tendency: gotta heighten the contradictions to drive people to give up on sin/capitalism. As for externalizing faults into some scapegoat minority, it's definitely a thing, but it's a take you see a lot more among right wing politicking pastors and Christian influencers than among regular people IME. Scripture is pretty clear that you're supposed to take the beam out of your own eye before you take on your neighbor's straw.

[–] SuperNovaCouchGuy2@hexbear.net 13 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Thanks that makes sense, I thought the liberal meant to include the set of everything not just "humanity" when they said "the world", would have been more gnostic than christian.

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 13 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I think if I knew a bit more about Gnosticism there would be a funny comparison between postmodern radliberalism and Gnosticism. Denying the existence of the real world, esotericism, etc. Maybe it does gnosticism a disservice.

[–] SuperNovaCouchGuy2@hexbear.net 13 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Denying the existence of the real world

Afaik the gnostics acknowledge that the material world exists they just think it's evil. Gnosticism although in itself a religion, is a subversive response to Abrahamic religions.

[–] purpleworm@hexbear.net 6 points 3 months ago

I'd argue the main subversive element in Gnosticism is that the world was created by an evil being for evil purpose and seeks to impede salvation, whereas in Christianity God did create a world that for some reason is also evil, but He nonetheless acts through it and made parts of it for the sake of trying to get us to repent and accept God via Christ, showing us mercy when our sins would see us otherwise condemned.

A good example -- if I may use a source decidedly downstream of the Bible itself -- is "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," where the fundamental point of it, the central image, is that God is keeping us from Hell. We would fall of our own weight, our own sin, except that God has for the moment kept us aloft in His hands and given us this chance to escape damnation, but may at any point withdraw His hands and allow our sins to drag us to Hell.

There are in the souls of wicked men those hellish principles reigning, that would presently kindle and flame out into hell-fire, if it were not for God’s restraints. There is laid in the very nature of carnal men, a foundation for the torments of hell. There are those corrupt principles, in reigning power in them, and in full possession of them, that are seeds of hell-fire. These principles are active and powerful, exceeding violent in their nature, and if it were not for the restraining hand of God upon them, they would soon break out, they would flame out after the same manner as the same corruptions, the same enmity does in the hearts of damned souls, and would beget the same torments as they do in them. The souls of the wicked are in Scripture compared to the troubled sea, Isaiah 57:20. For the present, God restrains their wickedness by his mighty power, as he does the raging waves of the troubled sea, saying, “Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further,” but if God should withdraw that restraining power, it would soon carry all before it. Sin is the ruin and misery of the soul; it is destructive in its nature; and if God should leave it without restraint, there would need nothing else to make the soul perfectly miserable. The corruption of the heart of man is immoderate and boundless in its fury; and while wicked men live here, it is like fire pent up by God’s restraints, whereas if it were let loose, it would set on fire the course of nature; and as the heart is now a sink of sin, so, if sin was not restrained, it would immediately turn the soul into fiery oven, or a furnace of fire and brimstone.

. . .

So that, thus it is that natural men are held in the hand of God, over the pit of hell; they have deserved the fiery pit, and are already sentenced to it; and God is dreadfully provoked, his anger is as great towards them as to those that are actually suffering the executions of the fierceness of his wrath in hell, and they have done nothing in the least to appease or abate that anger, neither is God in the least bound by any promise to hold them up one moment; the devil is waiting for them, hell is gaping for them, the flames gather and flash about them, and would fain lay hold on them, and swallow them up; the fire pent up in their own hearts is struggling to break out: and they have no interest in any Mediator, there are no means within reach that can be any security to them. In short, they have no refuge, nothing to take hold of; all that preserves them every moment is the mere arbitrary will, and uncovenanted, unobliged forbearance of an incensed God.

As an aside, I really enjoy the writing style of this text and I strongly think that the whole thing is worth reading. Even in this text though, I would say it is somewhat at odds with the New Testament in that it much more strongly affirms the goodness of the world in a more Old Testament style, even if it's obviously extremely New Testament in saying that the only means of salvation is with the Mediator of the Covenant, Jesus Christ. It singles out man specifically as evil and characterizes the rest of creation other than Hell, the Devil, etc. as being good and preferring to serve piety.

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 5 points 3 months ago

Afaik the gnostics acknowledge that the material world exists they just think it's evil.

Yea, but they think that the world is essentially a mistake and a less perfect version of what the real God is capable of. So they generally reject the world in favor of that.

[–] purpleworm@hexbear.net 6 points 3 months ago

It's less prominent in modern Christianity, but it's a very prominent theme in the Bible and in earlier forms of Christianity. That's a major element of the Christian interpretation for Adam and Eve being cast from Eden, that there was a sort of earthly paradise and we were thrown out of it and put here instead as punishment. See also:

Some passages from the Bible on this topic

John 2:15–16

“Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”

Romans 12:2

“Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.”

John 15:19

“If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.”

James 4:4

“Friendship with the world is enmity with God. Therefore anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.”

Galatians 1:4

“Who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.”

[This one can be argued to be less condemnatory because of Christ's crucifixion producing a New Covenant and thereby a less evil age, but notice that he's still speaking in the present tense about their age being evil.]

Colossians 3:2

“Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.”

Matthew 6:19

“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal.”

Philippians 3:20

“But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ.”

But you are right in your implicit point that modern American Christianity often does not really reflect this, or only does so extremely selectively. It tends ironically to lean toward more Old Testament ideas about God blessing people with political power and wealth (like King Solomon).