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Are you MLs going to exclude all veterans from the revolution then?
Are you MLs going to consider that all veterans are a monolith and deserve to be morally contempted for the rest of their lives, with no chance of rehabilitation and change?
Your list of comrades will never stop shrinking if this mentality continues.
Note that Platner denies these rape accusations, when the victim has contemporaneous receipts and Platner's therapy never got around to covering this. Apparently he can rehabilitate as a veteran but not as a sex pest. THAT'S the part y'all should be concerned with.
Nice to see the Democrats convict someone without evidence or a trial, was he charged with anything?
No one going to ask why these accusers stayed silent for 5 years?
The Olde DNC doesn't want Platner, so they Gary Harted him.
Regardless of there being any police investigations, rape reports, arraignments, trials, convictions, and incarcerations or not, Platner should have made his skeletons public ahead of the primaries.
Regardless of if the allegations are true or not, Platner should have disclosed these bad times in his life because the DNC and Israel would have absolutely used them against Platner anyways.
But that didn't happen and now we're here, and Mainers are starting to shift perspective away from Platner in recent polls.
Optics are essential for politics, unfortunately.
From leadership positions? Sure.
Excluding someone from a leadership position does not mean they "deserve to be morally contempted with no chance of rehabilitation or change." This whole mentality is completely screwed up and backwards.
If a politician fucks up or does something shitty, and they want my forgiveness, then they're completely free to drop out of politics. Go volunteer at a soup kitchen or something. Better yet, go out and make restitution to your victims. It doesn't matter if you're unable to undo the damage you caused, so long as you're trying and you're being humble about it.
But somehow, and idk if this is an American thing or what, but people like you get things completely twisted. A politician can just say "I'm sorry," do absolutely nothing to make restitution or demonstrate humility, and everything's fine! It's ridiculous, that's not forgiveness, that's either not caring about what they did in the first place, or bootlicking and refusing to hold powerful people accountable.
No one who's truly sorry and ashamed about something they've done would try to make themselves the face of a political movement and expect people to rally around them. Why does it have to be him when there are plenty of other people out there who haven't been a killer for hire or a rapist?
It's completely insane.
Was Platner charged with rape?
Why now? Why did these accusations not happen in 2021?
You guys are being played by Warren, Schumer, etc.
No, but the accusation is very credible.
Because he wasn't running for office then?
If Chuck Schumer planted the idea in my brain to distrust a Blackwater mercenary with a Nazi tattoo and a credible rape accusation, then man, I don't even know. He must have some kind of mind control ray, one that he uses to promote ideas completely contrary to the policies he supports. I must be deep under his control.
Or, and I know this sounds completely crazy compared to the mind control thing, it might actually be possible that multiple people can dislike someone for different reasons, that they arrived at on their own.
Seriously, I'm getting flashbacks to high school here. Every time I questioned the conservative beliefs I was raised with, it was "who's putting these ideas in your head?" as if I were incapable of having an independent thought. But maybe it was the Chuck Schumer mind control ray all along 🤔
Beautifully and succinctly said!
If a former veteran gets elected as a politician, blocks legislation that favors the Military Industrial Complex (MIC) and Israel, and passes legislation that benefits the constituents at home, then that's some real, tangible restitution. And veterans turned dissenters of the existing regime may make more inroads than others without that background because of their spite and disdain for the status quo.
Someone being a product of the system they were indoctrinated into doesn't disqualify them from changing the system. That's purity politics.
No, no it's not, that's not how anything works. "I just need to acquire power for myself so that I can make up for the bad things I did" is completely the wrong mentality and not someone who is genuinely seeking forgiveness. Your path of redemption does not look like you becoming one of the most powerful and influential people on earth. You want forgiveness, you use the power that you have right now to make a difference.
This is fundamental. Everyone has some fantasy about how, once they're rich and famous and powerful, once they win the lottery, they'll be super generous and kind and make the world a better place. And in the meantime, if they have to screw people over to get there, it doesn't matter because it'll all work out in the end. Seeking forgiveness necessarily means rejecting that mentality!
If you have already fucked up with what power you have, then the problem isn't that you don't have enough power, it's that you aren't capable of using that power responsibly. The last thing you should be trying to do is acquire more power, and doing that is fundamentally incompatible with redemption.
So be it. If that's purity politics, then we need way more purity politics in the US.
Biden spent his entire long career creating and exacerbating every problem the country has been facing, and somehow anyone who tried to apply any standard whatsoever to him, including just basic cognitive functioning, was accused of practicing "purity politics." The US already has the least "pure" political standards in the entire world. That's how we got here.
How do veterans make people's lives better in the grand scheme? Lead soup kitchens? Set up mutual aide networks?
Is mass change through the state apparatus not an effective way of achieving the same goals?
Doesn't mean Platner can't do both, of course. And he hasn't.
"Grand scheme" nope, immediately wrong. You want to make things better in some big dramatic way, you want to be the face of a movement, you want a leadership position, don't commit war crimes and rape people. Period.
You want to earn redemption and forgiveness having done those things? You contribute to other people's movements and efforts. You quietly support from the background.
The vast majority of people who are actually working to make the world a better place receive little to no recognition. They never get their name up in lights, even if they do good their entire lives without killing and raping first. Now, you think the killer-for-hire is somehow entitled to being one of the few people who get recognition, who represent the movement? That they're too good to do the quiet and humble work that non-murderers do? Where do you get off?
Whether it is or not is irrelevant, the point is that Platner shouldn't be one of the figures leading and representing that effort.
So all veterans, if they want to redeem themselves in the eyes of MLs, must do what's the equivalent of community service in dissuading the youth from joining the military, providing mutual aide for other veterans, and maybe 10-20 other things before they get moral consideration from the left.
Any veterans that don't immediately do that after leaving military service after as little as 1 tour and instead go on to do other normal economic things with their time like oyster farming, trucking, construction, whatever makes their living is not good enough for doing anything associated with political office.
Do these same purity tests apply to normal folks, the peasantry class, that have no military experience? What if some of those peasants do crimes like arson or domestic violence or murder? Do they also get banned from political office forever, even if they give back to their communities? How much do they have to give back? Are the requirements in years? Or should we measure people's emotions and cognitions to see if they've really learned their lesson? Do all leaders need to be pure, untainted lab rats grown into wealthy families that see no hardship?
Purity tests are the cancer of the left. There needs to be space for people to recognize their wrongs, and try to do better about it. Saying whether HOW they do better is right or wrong is arbitrary. Veterans that see how bad the MIC is would be best suited to know how to dismantle it. Former inmates that see how bad the Prison Industrial Complex (PIC) is would be best suited to know how to dismantle it.
Obviously it's better if vets, former inmates, etc. do all of the above. But I don't think we should rule out people if they don't, especially if there's no better alternative. The best thing to do in these dilemmas is find better candidates and support them. Without that, viability and policies is the only way forward.
What does "moral consideration" mean here, exactly? The only thing I've talked about is leadership positions. Apparently, in your mind, saying I don't want someone in a leadership position is the same as saying I don't mind if they're taken out and shot.
Correct. Although, to be clear, in this case, we're talking about someone who did four terms and then signed up as a killer-for-hire with Blackwater.
Yes? Duh, why wouldn't they? Are there a lot of arsonists holding office where you live? Do you think we should be electing ICE agents?
The only double standard you can find here is that the same crimes that would be obviously and automatically disqualifying if committed domestically are somehow excused, if not admired when committed abroad.
That's exactly what I am doing! Obviously, if you fuck up then continue seeking power for yourself, you haven't learned shit. Saying "I'm sorry" when it's politically advantageous is meaningless.
Which they can absolutely do. From a non-leadership position.
Who is Graham Platner's campaign manager? Can you name them without Googling? If Platner were in a role like that, I wouldn't really care. But apparently that means I think he'd "unworthy of moral consideration" in your ridiculous framing.
Moral consideration includes whether the person has attractive morals to be considered a leader.
Anybody that commits a crime, that rehabilitates and demonstrates social behavior and not a social behavior, should be given the chance to run for public office. Lifetime bans from public office can be abused.
ICE agents that change their minds, leave the force, and show rehabilitated behaviors should absolutely be considered for public office.
None of what I'm saying that we should pick these folks over others that have the same policy views WITHOUT this same baggage. In my view the baggage shouldn't be deal breakers, because baggage is nuanced and deserves contextual understanding.
People demonstrate whether they've learned about their past wrongs through their actions. Speaking truth to power is an action, and it's better than nothing when the political parties in USA are rotten to the core. Maybe you Euroids and third worldists have better choices in political candidates. In the US, our choices for some races are Zionists, rapists, white supremacists, etc. The best we can do (in certain areas of USA) in the big dystopian 226 is rally behind people who do say the right things. Until someone better shows up, which wasn't the case in Maine until this Platner rape crisis and the alternative, Troy Jackson.
Who is Platner's campaign manager? Who is Bernie's? Zohran's? AOC's? I have no fucking clue because I'm not a political autist masking as an ML.
That's not what the phrase "moral consideration" means. "Moral consideration" means, like, if they're in a trolley problem next to an empty track, it's wrong to kill them. If there's a mosquito on one track, it probably doesn't warrant moral consideration, so it's not important to save it.
Hard disagree. Why are you so deadset on getting people with questionable loyalties and character into leadership roles? It's self-sabotage.
Completely ridiculous.
Yes, exactly!
What the fuck? Absolutely not!
People demonstrate their character by actual actions. Which is why, someone whose character has been demonstrated as bad through bad actions should be expected to redeem themselves through actions and not just saying nice things.
I mean, seriously? "People demonstrate their character through actions" means nothing if you're counting "talking" as an "action." The whole point of that phrase is that talk is cheap!
I have absolutely no idea where you pulled that one from. I'm an American.
That's literally the point, dumbass. The campaign manager could be murderer or rapist (as you are so intent to allow into high-level positions for some bizarre reason) and it wouldn't cause nearly as many problems. Like, tbh it wouldn't be great to have such people in such roles, but Jesus Christ, at least keep them out of the top positions! It's like you're trying to tank the campaign or get co-opted!
Just the ones that go back 4 times for the thrill of killing, volunteer at torture prisons, and work for mercenary groups.
Rapists aren't sex pests, they're rapists.
There are no criminal charges against Platner because there is no evidence to support this story that mysteriously remained silent for 5 years.
Guess we'll see!
So only veterans that touch and go with the military for 6 months or 1 tour are worthy of rehabilitation and your support?
Once again, this mentality will never lead to the populist revolution Lenin wrote about.
I'm not here to debate you about what is or isn't a sex pest. Platner can fuck off in that regard.
Charged, tried and convicted in the court of Lemmy.
Uhh, yes. If you don't see the fucking evil way americas military treats innocent civilians on your first tour and then immediately regret it, and actively go back 3 more times, then volunteer for a torture camp, then become a mercenary.. Fuck you.
Not a hard concept to understand, yeah?
Propaganda can take longer for some if they choose to ignore reality.
Not a lot of leftists are vegans in this regard. If they saw how gas chambers, pistols to the head, knives to the throat are used to kill animals and get them prepped for people's chicken nuggets and jalapen poppers, you'd think they'd change and stop eating meat, but to them the speciesist propaganda that humans are better persists.
Did you write this in the wrong spot? The fuck does this have to do with anything?
He gave a straightforward comparison assuming you were capable of reading comprehension and abstract thought.
You know what we did to Germans that were propagandized enough to commit murder, rape and torture?
Hanged them.
Actually we sent most of them home after recruiting the most intelligent and capable and really only hanging token leaders. Most nazis faced no repercussions after the war.
That's not what the socialists did lol.
My point was about propaganda prevailing over people's eyes and ears. That is a fact that happens for many. Not everyone has the privilege to act on their moral instincts like you. That's what I'm saying.
Veganism is an example from another context that underpins what I'm saying. Same can be said for veterans and new recruits. Hell, most Americans still see military people as heroes. Not saying I do, but that's a fact.
Right, and he was there in person to see through the propaganda. He wanted to go back 3 more times. He volunteered to work at a torture dungeon. He became a mercenary. Your point about propaganda is completely irrelevant, this guy is a murderous Nazi rapist.
Sadly I don't think eyes and ears defeat propaganda for all people. I'm happy you believe that. But it might not be a realistic perspective.
Murder. Torture. Rape. If propaganda makes you do these things, you're beyond saving.