this post was submitted on 09 Jul 2026
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[–] ClathrateG@hexbear.net 39 points 6 days ago (1 children)

This implies that under the capitalist 'democratic' process people other than knaves and thieves could be voted in

[–] Sanctus@anarchist.nexus 14 points 6 days ago (2 children)

I mean when its just a village raising hands in the forum, yes. This shit? I dont even know what this is but it is NOT by the people thats for fucken sure. Its suffering made manifest to spread anguish far and wide. Or maybe eldritch farts, Idk.

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 17 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

I mean when its just a village raising hands in the forum, yes.

I just want to say that my own experience of local politics is that you definitely get knaves and thieves even in the smallest places. Without a focus on ideological education you can get small groups of absolute tyrants and when they work together they run rings around people who can't dedicate enormous amounts of time specifically to understand what social and political games they're playing and combatting them.

This isn't just a bourgeois democracy thing either. Even in China the reputation of local level governance is absolutely awful compared with the reputation national governance has. Local has the reputation of being filled with corrupt dickheads and small tyrants. The way some of my Chinese friends describe it sometimes resembles the HOA behaviour the americans complain about.

I think there is a great deal of ideological education necessary to make sure that local things work out right. Maybe absolutely tiny tiny groups of under 50 people this gets better? Idk. I'm not sure participation at that scale can be efficient in a society of millions though.

[–] Sanctus@anarchist.nexus 6 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

You know, in these hypotheticals. I guess I did kinds glaze over that you somehow have to get everyone on the same page. My brain just goes "well of course in an anarchist commune we'd all be anarchists" and while sure, imagine it, you have to get there somehow. I also realize most of you are MLs so I get it doesnt always jive but thats okay with me at least.

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 9 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

Yeah a huge part of the problem is ultimately how we get everyone ideologically educated into the same spot. In the process of achieving that there is the additional issue of what you do with the people who are resistant to it, or what you do with those who outright oppose it. This is the kind of problem the ancoms in Nicaragua ran into, or the Spanish anarchists in Revolutionary Catalonia having totally-not-prison-camps filled with fascists. These are real material problems that we will run into and it's these issues that make the anti-authoritarian anarchists a problem, because they will become reactionary opponents when they see you running prisons. I'm totally cool with the anarchists that understand authority is necessary and that anarchism isn't anti-authoritarianism.

I know it's kind of a cliche to bring up Engels' On-Authority but it's so fucking important that people realise some degree of use of authority is totally necessary even if you don't completely agree with marxists. There's no anarchist project that hasn't run into the problem and when they do they need to do something. A short excerpt:

Why do the anti-authoritarians not confine themselves to crying out against political authority, the state? All Socialists are agreed that the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a result of the coming social revolution, that is, that public functions will lose their political character and will be transformed into the simple administrative functions of watching over the true interests of society. But the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough?

Therefore, either one of two things: either the anti-authoritarians don't know what they're talking about, in which case they are creating nothing but confusion; or they do know, and in that case they are betraying the movement of the proletariat. In either case they serve the reaction.

Also Parenti: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-PHYj1vb-w

It is necessary to understand that these elements of state authority are constructed in reaction to something, for a purpose. It is an unpleasant solution to an unpleasant problem.

[–] HexReplyBot@hexbear.net 1 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:

[–] purpleworm@hexbear.net 10 points 6 days ago (1 children)

If capitalists (e.g. local petite bourgeois) take control of the village, it will rapidly lose the ability to elect people other than running dogs, and if they don't control the village then it doesn't apply to what the person said.

[–] Sanctus@anarchist.nexus 1 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

And thats why the village is armed and educated, and to your other non point, sure.

[–] purpleworm@hexbear.net 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I don't see why you feel the need to make that jab when what you said literally just isn't a response to what the first person said, because they stipulated "capitalist 'democracy'".

[–] Sanctus@anarchist.nexus 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

What was the point of your original response? It seems like you just wanted in while it was hot, not really adding anything. It seemed more you wanted to comment with the "good opinion" rather than actually wanting to add or share anything. That's why.

[–] purpleworm@hexbear.net 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I really don't understand this animosity, which is now in the form of poorly psychoanalyzing me. You failed to engage with the actual premise of what the person you responded to said, so I was essentially restating the premise because there's no way to proceed if people are talking past each other from the jump.

[–] Sanctus@anarchist.nexus 0 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Read it again, dont see how I didnt engage. Maybe you felt I didn't. But I did. So I am left wondering, did you just want to say your piece? I'm left with nothing but to assume so.

[–] purpleworm@hexbear.net 1 points 5 days ago

You didn't engage because it was part of the basic premise of what ClathrateG said that we are talking about "capitalist 'democracy'", stating that such systems have no choice but "knaves and thieves". You ostensibly ignored the "capitalist" part of it to respond like it was just talking about democracy in literally any context (so you can stipulate your village). I don't know how I can explain it more simply.

A: Can you say that any human denied water for a month would survive?

B: Yes, if they have water.

C: It's part of the premise of the prompt that they don't.

B: Nice non-point, guess you just wanted hop on this hot convo topic to say your thing and perform having a "good opinion."