this post was submitted on 20 Sep 2023
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THROWBACK cross-post from: https://hexbear.net/post/49520

Seriously tho these people can’t be serious, right? Like this has to be a fucking op

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[–] daq 3 points 2 years ago (8 children)

Maybe a weak argument, but even inherited experience seems more valid than no experience at all or knowledge procured from period literature allowed by the censors.

I don't think many experts criticize the idea of communism - just the fact that it is impossible to achieve in reality and historical or even anecdotal evidence supports this criticism.

[–] Redbolshevik2@hexbear.net 40 points 2 years ago (2 children)

just the fact that it is impossible to achieve in reality and historical or even anecdotal evidence supports this criticism.

What are you talking about? What experts?

[–] space_comrade@hexbear.net 24 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Source: random youtube documentary made with the same amount of academic rigor as "Ancient Aliens".

[–] RollaD20@hexbear.net 36 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Yes an extremely weak argument. Arguably not an argument. It's one of those emotional truths that seem to just be accepted as fact nowadays.

My inherited experience is one of living in Ukraine in the Pale. Being victims of pogroms and extreme violence in the russian empire until the soviets came to power and afforded my family opportunities that they couldn't have possibly dreamed of whilst living in extreme poverty in the Shtetl. Then having to deal with a bunch of nazis and nazi collaborator fucks for decades. That's only on one side of my family which was lucky, by the way. The other side had huge portions killed because of said nazi collaborators. So who's inherited experience is more valid?

[–] daq 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yours is just as valid and I think you'd be equally disappointed if someone shit on it just based on the fact that you weren't born when Pale stopped existing in 1915.

Everyone's experience is different, based on a ton of factors outside of who's currently in power. Distant republics like Armenia, for example, certainly did not have the same experience as we did in Ukraine, but my argument stands.

[–] RollaD20@hexbear.net 23 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Elevating a view point that is based on ignorance, vibes-based understanding of politics and economy, and--let's be frank--lies with the express purpose of silencing dissenting opinions is, in fact, not respecting everyone's experience. Sometimes certain voices need to shut the fuck up and listen to other's experiences because what they believe to be true is just something absorbed through passive ideological osmosis.

You also speak as if I don't frequently experience at least mild antisemitism when I express this perspective. I do, depending largely on where I am. A lot of people don't care about bandera nazis in Ukraine currently, so pointing to this nazi history tends to spark a bad response.

[–] daq 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I disagree and you are countering your own point by saying your experience is more valid than his.

Describing your experience or even that of your ancestors without spewing hate or insults is ok in my book and it's human nature to arrive at different conclusions.

I really didn't mean my comment to get into specifics of current situation in Ukraine and you can choose not to believe my experience. I experienced zero antisemitism in recent encounter with group you call nazis, currently defending their own country, with a very prominently displayed star of David and better russian than Ukrainian. Can't say the same thing about the time my family left.

[–] TraumaDumpling@hexbear.net 24 points 2 years ago

someone's personal anecdotes, especially anonymously given on the internet, without hard evidence to back it up, are meaningless in the face of data and detailed reports, this is a basic aspect of any serious research. it is absolutely absurd to accept everyone's interpretation of events equally given the material conditions that shape people's beliefs. the poster screenshotted lived through capitalism, not communism, and uses that time period to denigrate communism, even though it was not the dominant ideology at the time for a while. that is absurd, and recognizing that is not '''invalidating someone's experiences'''.

and then you randomly jump to defending ukrainian (alleged) nazi militias. Which group did you meet i wonder, and what would i find if i googled their history or iconography? like, it is an objective fact that many of the militias in the country are nazis and use nazi iconography and espouse beliefs identical to nazi beliefs, in addition to their war crimes against ethnic russians, jews, roma, LGBT people, and the disabled. there is ample UN reporting on this issue, and your nice, friendly interaction with these alleged nazis does not counter that.

https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf

https://press.un.org/en/2022/ga12483.doc.htm

https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14823.doc.htm

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/ukraine-has-nazi-problem-vladimir-putin-s-denazification-claim-war-ncna1290946

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_14th_HRMMU_Report.pdf

https://www.state.gov/reports/2018-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/ukraine/

https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/02/the-historian-whitewashing-ukraines-past-volodymyr-viatrovych/

https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/white-supremacists-other-extremists-respond-russian-invasion-ukraine

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/359609-the-reality-of-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-is-far-from-kremlin-propaganda/

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-got-a-real-problem-with-far-right-violence-and-no-rt-didn-t-write-this-headline/

https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/azov-battalion

[–] RollaD20@hexbear.net 12 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

My point isn't that my lived experience is more valid. My point, which I should have made explicit, is that lived, inherited, whatever experiences are inherently contradictory, so they are not useful alone. You have to look at the current and historical sociopolitical and economic situations in order to properly place testimony into context. Also it's a reddit post from a kid who is regurgitating half-baked information from their parents. It's not some important testimony about living conditions in the soviet union, its someone looking for attention.

Lots of fascists love Israel and zionism btw, it allows them to avoid accusations of antisemitism while pushing adjusted nazi propaganda and at the same time accuse others of antisemitism. So call the significant Ukrainian far right segments neo-fascists, banderites, ultranationalists, they are tied into the history of nazi reaction in Ukrainian history regardless of their current, individual stance on jews (plenty still hate jews). And not every Ukranian is a fascist, of course. Plenty of forced conscripts. Plenty of people who felt compelled to fight and have been callously sent into a meat grinder. I'm not really interested in maintaining the "brave defender" romanticized narrative bullshit. It ignores the realities of opinions of people living near the front on both sides, they don't care how things end up they just want the killing to stop. These deaths are in no small part the fault of the Ukrainian far right which has consistently escalated and refused to stop attacking the breakaway regions of Eastern Ukraine prior to the outbreak of the war. Regardless of how one feels about this war or Russia these ultranationalist groups have only worsened the situation and everyone would've been better off with them being jailed or executed by the state. Perhaps a peace accord with the DPR and LPR as federated entities within Ukraine, rather than a series of bullet ridden ceasefires.

[–] daq 0 points 2 years ago

Just imagine Germany invading Belgium - claiming that Germans were oppressed in a bordering region that happens to be the location of a very lucrative business opportunity for Germany. Then imagine someone saying this hateful nonsense 2 years into the war:

These deaths are in no small part the fault of the ~~Ukrainian~~ Belgian far right which has consistently escalated and refused to stop attacking the breakaway regions of Eastern ~~Ukraine~~ Belgium prior to the outbreak of the war.

I hope you understand why I don't want to continue this conversation.

[–] pumpchilienthusiast@hexbear.net 34 points 2 years ago (1 children)

hey hexers, you ever play "spot the the federated poster?" it's a really simple game, you just look for the dumb takes and, bingo

[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 24 points 2 years ago (2 children)
[–] ProletarianDictator@hexbear.net 20 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I love how user reports from federated servers go straight into the file shredder.

[–] ZoomeristLeninist@hexbear.net 14 points 2 years ago

only the nonsense reports

[–] dannoffs 12 points 2 years ago (1 children)

IDK if you guys can see it but they also like to dehumanize children murdered by border patrol.

[–] FrogFractions@hexbear.net 17 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

inherited experience seems more valid than no experience at all or knowledge procured from period literature allowed by the censors

Let me just clarify something

Are you asking if feels you have because of genetic ancestry count more than documentary evidence?

Because that’s fucking nuts. Bonko crazy.

Or perhaps by “inherited experience” you mean second hand anecdotes? You know that documentary evidence is legally admissible and hearsay is not and for a good reason right?

It’s because “my grandma once told me when I was young” is an atrociously unreliable source of evidence whereas contemporary records are a profoundly reliable source of evidence.

[–] ikilledtheradiostar@hexbear.net 14 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I've inherited some experience and I'd like to share it with you:

spoilerfart

[–] honeynut@lemm.ee 14 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I don't think many experts criticize the idea of communism - just the fact that it is impossible to achieve in reality and historical or even anecdotal evidence supports this criticism.

I mean the history of human civilization between the advent of class society and the 18th century also had no evidence to support the "real life" viability of liberal capitalist rule.

Even then, for the first century of its existence, if you consider the number of failed revolutions that saw re-establishment of monarchial/theocratic rule, its failure to liberate slaves, engaging in the same imperialist tendencies as feudal states, violently squashing dissent, the constant market crashes, the corruption of the ruling class, the failures of political leaders to adhere to the constitutional law that they themselves wrote etc...an observer living under a prospering monarchy in the 1800s could also very well say

Ha! Meet the new boss - same as the old boss.

Well yeah it sounds good on paper but doesn't work in real life.

I'm not criticizing the idea of liberalism, it's just that history shows that it always fails.

Then, when the old feudal powers, for a time, were able to innovate their structures to accommodate industrialization, (domestic) slavery abolition, and demands for suffrage, they might also also comment

See? The system works - just very slowly. We don't need any revolutionary reconstitution of society that could jeopardize the current stability that is working in my favor

These traps of thought termination can be avoided by studying the dialectical materialist analytical method developed by Marx and Engels (and continually expanded by later generations), derived from examining the interactions of socio-economic forces within Feudalism that birthed Capitalism, and applying that study to the historical development of liberal capitalist society to sus out the transformative tendencies that would come to dominate the next major epoch of human civilization, broadly conceptualized as Communism.

In short, Communism isn't simply a set of "wouldn't it be nice if..." ideas. It's an observation of the evolution of human relations. Sometimes specific branches die off like the Soviets and Parisian communards, but there isn't such a thing as a "perfect stage" that evolution stops for, and it certainly isn't Capitalism. That doesn't necessarily rule out some third alternative, but so far it has only materialized as fascism and techno-feudalism, and neither to a Marxist are changes at all because the productive relations remain strictly Capitalist.

[–] daq 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I completely agree the world will drastically change in the future, but that doesn't offer any proof that

Communism isn’t simply a set of “wouldn’t it be nice if…” ideas.

It didn't fail because of a few correctable factors that will eventually line up through evolution, tech advances or change of leadership. Much more accurate to say that the next stage will inevitably contain some parts from earlier stages. That's just nature of evolution.

[–] honeynut@lemm.ee 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Much more accurate to say that the next stage will inevitably contain some parts from earlier stages

Well yeah, that's not really a curve ball - it's literally an aspect of dialectical materialism that I described.