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this post was submitted on 05 Jul 2023
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I'm saying anyone claiming to be Christian and getting involved in politics is not a Christian.
Yes it's true that the Bible says abortion is wrong. But that's for the reader to apply to themselves, not forcibly apply to everyone else through politics.
It's no different than Jainism with eating meat. They outright do not eat meat as a religious practice, which is fine. But imagine if they protested and took office to make it law that no one else can eat meat.
The Bible even says that people should not be getting involved in politics. So it's a double whammy with forcing their beliefs onto other people through a means that God doesn't approve.
Where does the Bible say abortion is wrong?
I'm also curious. The bible says life begins after birth, when God breathes life into the lungs. This is stated multiple times. You are not alive until you take your first breath.
That's kind of a stretch. The "breathing life into lungs" is a figurative way of saying "giving life to" or even "putting life into". We don't breathe "life", we breathe "air". And throughout time the act of breathing is associated with being alive. It's visual and testable. When someone stops breathing, they die. No one dead breaths. So if you're breathing, you're alive.
The Bible also mentions the life of an unborn child multiple times, and no one today would say a fetus isn't alive.
When you stop breathing you're no longer a "living person". Your cells are often alive for a while and there are some human cell lineages that have persisted for some time past the animal death. You are still biologically alive after its clear you've died as a person.
Even in the bible they don't value a fetus like they do a person
There is ambiguity in the word "life" that doesnt translate well even among english speakers.
Suppose some "angel" did come down and try to communicate something to you and you wrote it down in english words today, do you think you'd be able to capture and tell people accurately what the angel intended or do you think its possible to maybe misquote a divine messager such that a bunch of dumbasses in a second language think a fetus is a person and use that interpretation as a test of faith that they mandate into law?
I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say. You're hyper-fixating on the exact modern definition of a specific word.
There absolutely is no ambiguity when talking about a person. You are either alive or not. Yes it's possible to resuscitate someone after "clinical death", but even that is well understood. Clinical death is the absence of vitals (heart beat, sinus rhythm, etc). And we also understand that as long as cellular respiration is occurring at the molecular level, the body hasn't gone past the point of no return. However, once brain death or cellular death has occurred, it's over. We understand all of this. We also understand that even with modern medical knowledge there's nothing we can do past a certain point even in the most ideal conditions. And ideal conditions would be in a hospital bed surrounded by medical experts. We understand there is a hard line between "alive" and "not alive".
Except that even harming a woman who is pregnant, even accidentally, causing a miscarriage is considered punishable by death in the Mosaic Law. "A life for a life". So no, you're wrong.
I'm very foggy on what you're trying to say here. But if I have the gist of it, you're asking if the writer of a Bible book could have misinterpreted an angel and wrote the wrong thing down. And then later on someone incorrectly translated the writings so that the 2nd language people "think a fetus is a person" and take it as a test of faith to mandate it into law?
Did I get that right?
It doesn't explicitly say "abortion is wrong", but it is inferred from other things like the sacredness of life, etc.
Anyways, that wasn't the point of my comment. The point of my comment was that it doesn't matter what the Bible says in the context of abortion. It's not ok to force your beliefs on to others.
Where exactly does the Bible say that abortion is wrong? Have you read the Old Testament? There are so many dead babies there you could use them for the foundations of the tower of Babel. There's even a method described for inducing abortion.
Hold my grape juice while I come up with afactual refutations for every point you asserted because I fail to understand the difference between scholarship and wishful thinking. /s
It doesn't explicitly say that abortion is wrong. It says that life is sacred and that killing someone is wrong. The Mosaic Law even said that if a pregnant woman was harmed, even accidentally, and it caused the baby to miscarry then the offender should be put to death, a "life for a life".
Yes, I have read it. Just because something is mentioned in the Bible, it isn't an endorsement. There are many accounts of people doing terrible things, but that doesn't mean we should all go and do those things. They are there either as a historical account or as an example of what not to do.
Classic no true Scotsman.
Hardly. Being a "true" Scotsman is subjective.
What I said is demonstrable.
So what you're saying is, the shoe is the sign, not the gourd.
What I'm saying is that it's not a fair comparison. The definition of a "true Scotsman" is subjective outside of literally being born in Scotland.
The definition of a Christian is defined by the teachings in the Bible. If that definition isn't met then you cannot claim to be a "true" Christian. One of those definitions is to not be involved with politics. Jesus rejected being called king because his "kingdom is no part of this world".
John 18:36 Jesus answered: “My Kingdom is no part of this world. If my Kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my Kingdom is not from this source.”
Matthew 20:25,26: But Jesus called them to him and said: “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. This must not be the way among you
And yet that's exactly what these Christian groups are doing; wielding power over others.
So ya, not "true" Christians.
And yet there are hundreds of other interpretations that disagree with you. Why is yours the only correct one?
Are the other interpretations disagreeing with me or with the Bible itself? I'm showing verses directly from the Bible that state clearly what I previously mentioned.
It's difficult to interpret something that's clearly stated. And I'm not trying to interpret anything here, I'm simply showing directly what the Bible says.
Chances the “christians” that campaign for anti abortion didn’t even finished reading their bible , or borderline illiterate, are extremely very high.
Spot on. There is no room for interpretation in the Bible for bigotry, violence, or hatred towards anyone.
The Bible does say "hate what is bad", but never "hate WHO is bad". In fact it says the opposite. The Bible literally says to "love your enemy" and "love your neighbour". Anyone can be your neighbour.
But like you said, most people who are vocal in such things either haven't read the Bible or don't understand the words they read. Nothing is preventing any single one of those people from practicing what they believe. Other people being "ungodly" doesn't impact themselves in any way.
Religion, unfortunately, is more often coopted as a tool for control than used for peace.
Edit: I like that I'm being downvoted for agreeing with dimlo, who is being upvoted. Feels like being on Reddit again.
Tell that to all the politicians who are trying to mold the country to their Christian beliefs.
They wouldn't care what I say. It doesn't suite their goals.
I'm not sure why this difficult to understand. These people are using the Bible as a hammer to force others to do what they want. If it wasn't the Bible, of the Bible didn't exist, it would just be something else.
AKA The Vatican and Christian leaders circa ~800 AD until Present. At some point you need to admit that Christianity and power dynamics are inseparable. You can argue semantics to people who don't care all day, but at the end of the day the vast majority of "Christian" identifying people are just bots in a global power scheme. Christianity has not been in an unmolested state for millenia. Modern day Christianity and the power that came from it's manipulation are one and the same, baked together throughout the ages, regardless of your semantics.
Agreed all all points.
Mostly agreed.
I myself am a Christian and I find it deplorable and disgusting what most Christians say and do. What others want to do is none of my business and has no impact on what I believe. And my beliefs should not be imposed on anyone ever.
The way I see it is that most Christian values equate to just being a decent person and I think most people generally fit that bill regardless of their spirituality or faith. I would personally never identify as a Christian explicitly because of the state the religion is in. It seems to me that most people who proclaim to be Christian these days are just using it as a charade to be bigoted, hateful, and intolerant (see: millenia old power structures). Christ would flip so many tables if he came back and saw the shit people were doing/saying in his name.
See, the thing is that "Christian" is more an umbrella term at this point. Even hundreds of years ago there were literal wars between different Christians. This is why the Anabaptists had their "third" baptism.
Yup