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I have a friend who is anti mRNA vaccines as they are so new.

Are they?

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[-] Tehhund@lemmy.world 83 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

The approved mRNA vaccines went through the same approval process as any vaccine. And once approved, they are monitored for safety like any other vaccine. Between pre-approval testing and post-approval monitoring, we would have detected any issues. So the proof is in the pudding — lots of countries have approved them and none have found risks that are worse than the disease they protect against (currently only COVID but there are more mRNA vaccines in the works).

There's also no reason to fear the way they work. Other vaccines introduce antigens (molecules that your body doesn't like and produces antibodies to attack) in various ways — sometimes with a weakend virus, sometimes with a dead virus, sometimes just the antigens themselves. mRNA is just another way to introduce antigens so your body learns to fight them. For a little while your body follows the instructions in the mRNA to produce the antigens, and then your body learns to attack those antigens. It's not all that different from the way other vaccines work. mRNA breaks down pretty quickly in your body so it's not even in your system for very long, and there's no mechanism in the body for mRNA to produce lasting changes. So it's a lot like you got a cold: for a little while the cold makes your body produce molecules, then your body fights it all off, and then in the end there's no permanent change except your body learned to fight off that particular antigen.

[-] bernieecclestoned@sh.itjust.works 20 points 11 months ago

Thanks, that's what I thought. They always point to the recorded side effects and I always counter with the fact that the disease is a lot lot worse than the cure, and that it's a classic trolley problem. If the equation is kill one to save a million, you always kill one.

Or am I missing something?

[-] FuglyDuck@lemmy.world 29 points 11 months ago

and that it’s a classic trolley problem

that's not a trolley problem. The trolley problem is an ethics debate about whether it's more ethical to allow multiple people die or take the action of saving that multiple people, condemning another to die instead. Not taking action, however, is itself an action- a choice- that is being made and the problem is entirely disconnected from real life...

The question of "vaccinate or not vaccinate" is an entirely different question. the question is, should you take an exceedingly small probability of manageable risks (allergic reactions, sore arms) to mitigate a rather high probability lethal risk (long term hospitalization, coma, death. death like symptoms.)

in the moderna vaccine, There's a 10% chance your arm is going to have swelling/redness/soreness. 1.2% chance that the area effective is large enough to even really notice. and for the more severe risk of alergic reactions, that's 2.5 cases per million doses, and is easily managed simply by maintaining the 15 minute observation after injection. (during which time staff are on hand to deal with the anaphylactic shock, which makes it substantially unlikely to cause permanent harm.)

the pfizer-biontech vaccine has similar mild reactions, that usually clear up in a single day, and a whopping 11 cases per million doses for allergic reactions (and 80% of those cases happened to people with an already diagnosed hypersensitivity to the PEG.)

this is compared to the probability of, you know, dying, from being unvaccinated. Per the CDC... yes, the vaccine is highly effective and extremely safe.

[-] HeartyBeast@kbin.social 20 points 11 months ago

Also be a little wary of the 'recorded side effects'. In the UK (and I'm sure its not alone), the NHS asked people to record any medical event that happened for a period post-vaccination that could conceivably be a side effect, in an abundance of caution - the idea that they could then sift the data for any actual side effects.

People often quote this raw data 'look n people had heart attacks after vaccination' - without factoring the expected number of heart attacks if that cohort had not been vaccinated. There's some great stuff in the raw data like people who suffered twisted ankles. Reasonable to record, as say a statistically significant increase in twisted ankles could (say) suggest balance problems were a side effect (they aren't)

[-] bernieecclestoned@sh.itjust.works 5 points 11 months ago

Ah, a classic correlation is not causation situation. Thanks!

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[-] Nollij@sopuli.xyz 4 points 11 months ago

In the US, this is often cited as "All-cause mortality". Which means every tracked medication and procedure has a certain (extremely low) risk of car crashes, even in non-drivers.

[-] Dudewitbow@lemmy.zip 6 points 11 months ago

The trolley problem is a bit different because its result depends on what kind of person you are.

People who think logically will always pick the option that kills less people. Some people who are emotionally driven hate the idea that manipulating the lever means you are first hand causing the death of said one person, whereas the 5 people, while who could be saved, didnt die outright because of a situation you as the person created.

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[-] seaweedsheep@literature.cafe 77 points 11 months ago

Your friend is an idiot. MRNA vaccines are not new. Scientists have been working on a vaccine since SARS, which is similar to COVID (aka SARS-CoV-2). One of the reasons why medication can take so long to reach the public is that it takes money, which likely come from grants, which take time and have limited amounts to go around. When the pandemic broke out, countries around the world threw money at these labs. Everything else pretty much stopped, so they didn't have to wait for an understaffed and underfunded FDA to approve it.

Getting the vaccine is much better than slowly suffocating because the virus destroyed your lungs. Herd immunity only works when enough people have been vaccinated and clearly we haven't reached that yet since people are still getting infected, reinfected and dying.

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[-] BillDaCatt@kbin.social 59 points 11 months ago

They are not really all that new. The research for mRNA vaccines began over 50 years ago.

mRNA vaccines are among the safest vaccines ever made. There is nothing in an mRNA vaccine that can make you sick. What they are is instructions for your immune system on how to recognize certain viruses when it sees them. You can literally email the mRNA sequence to a different lab and, provided they have the right equipment, they can make the vaccine without ever needing a sample of the virus.

The mild symptoms some people get is the immune system activating and building the viral antigens specified by the mRNA vaccine, but there is no danger of getting Covid-19 or any other disease from the Covid-19 vaccine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPeeCyJReZw

[-] Nollij@sopuli.xyz 9 points 11 months ago

One side note: while I know you are using the medical definition of "mild symptoms", please be aware that this doesn't match the colloquial definition. You can be absolutely miserable for several days (and a number of people are) and still be considered mild. Unless you get into symptoms like difficulty breathing or hospitalization, it still counts as mild.

Fully agree with everything you wrote.

[-] shalafi@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

LOL, I was gonna say. Called in sick 2-days in a row after shot #2, and I work from home. Couldn't even pretend to be working.

[-] cashews_best_nut@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

3D printable vaccines. mRNA is the 3D CAD file.

[-] Nollij@sopuli.xyz 3 points 11 months ago

Something I found interesting is why it took 50 years (which is a detail anti-vaxxers never seem to know) for a usable result to reach the open market. There have been a ton of studies and trials trying to get a useful vaccine, but very little of it (historically) was successful. This wasn't because of any health risks, but rather because they weren't effective enough. The mRNA simply broke down too fast for your immune system to react.

If you are concerned about safety, you should be applauding mRNA over the older methods.

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[-] GentlemanLoser@ttrpg.network 46 points 11 months ago

The question you should be asking is "are mRNA vaccines riskier than getting the diseases they're intended to prevent"

[-] ABCDE@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago

Both questions are legitimate and worth asking, preferably in order: are they risky? Is the benefit better than not taking it?

[-] otp@sh.itjust.works 6 points 11 months ago

Your question is a good response to the people who ask "Should I get the covid vaccine?".

Their question is a good response to the people who say "I'm not anti-vaccine, I'm anti-THIS-vaccine".

[-] Moobythegoldensock@lemm.ee 38 points 11 months ago

No. They are actually incredibly safe, much safer than the vaccines from last century. The big scandal from 1955, where an improperly killed polio vaccine gave polio to 40,000 kids, leaving 51 paralyzed and 5 dead, is literally impossible with mRNA vaccines.

As a doctor, I consider mRNA vaccines to be one of the most exciting developments in vaccine history. It has the potential to make vaccines something that a developer can encode, much like a programmer writing a computer program. The possible applications of this are insane.

[-] alvvayson@lemmy.world 35 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Is your friend stuck in 2021?

The covid vaccines are three years old now. Millions of people have had 3 or 4 shots, or even more.

In what world are they "new".

[-] HeartyBeast@kbin.social 13 points 11 months ago

Context: I'm fully vaccinated with 4 mRNA shots, I volunteered at a vaccination hub during the first lockdown.

It could be argued that they are still new in that we don't know of any long term affects that might crop up in 20 years time.

Conversely of course any long term affects of a fukll-blown Covid infection that could crop up in 20 years time are likely to be considerably worse.

[-] SharkAttak@kbin.social 14 points 11 months ago

We're getting Long Covid effects now, but I've yet to hear about Long Vax side effects.

[-] Fermion@feddit.nl 3 points 11 months ago

I got long covid from an infection before the vaccines were available.

Getting the vaccination and boosters noticeably worsened my existing long covid symptoms. I still got the boosters because I assume a reinfection would be much worse than the vaccine's effects. If I ever thought I could reasonably avoid risk of future infections I would not choose to get more boosters, but since exposure is inevitable, I'll deal with the consequences of the booster.

When essentially everyone has had exposure to covid your statement can't actually be tested. We don't have a cohort of people we know got vaccinated but were never exposed to the virus.

Anyway, the vaccine is worth getting because the alternative is being exposed to the virus without protection, but that doesn't mean the vaccine is actually free of side effects for everyone.

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[-] alvvayson@lemmy.world 12 points 11 months ago

Yes, you could argue that, but it would be an extraordinary claim.

I might still get indigestion from that taco I ate in 1999.

But it's really unlikely, since that Taco cleared my system way back then.

mRNA also clears the body quite quickly.

So to have side-effects after so many years, one would need to explain a mechanism.

Otherwise it's really just very speculative. Might as well believe 5G causes cancer. After all, it's new technology.

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[-] Endorkend@kbin.social 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Besides that, mrna tech started to be developed in the 1970's with the first labrat trials in the late 80's or early 90's.

Clinical trials on humans, to test their safety and effectiveness in combating various diseases and viruses have been ongoing for the past decade.

And as you said, the first several widely used vaccines based on mrna tech have been deployed to literally billions of people.

This is an incredibly gigantic sample size for data and there have been very few issues for the past 3 years.

And what bernieecclestoned brings up about herd immunity simply means the people they are talking to are, like most antivaxxers, blithering idiots that know some catch phrases and not a single meaning behind them.

You only obtain herd immunity with minimal casualties through hardening the herd with vaccines and then hope the immune systems of the herd adjust to further combat the disease. If data doesn't show that new variants are easily countered by the immune systems of the herd, you know you need to develop more vaccines.

If you try to obtain herd immunity by letting a brand new disease like COVID run its course, you will probably obtain it eventually, but instead of 7 million dead worldwide (and lord knows how many with long covid or other long term disabilities due to the disease), you'll have 70 million or more.

Herd immunity doesn't mean you should just let shit hit the fan and see who's left standing. If you miscalculate the severity of the disease, you can have another situation like with the plague where it killed over 25 million out of the 180 million people on earth.

In todays numbers that would mean like 1.1 billion people die. Probably far more since we're extremely more connected than people were in 400AD.

And you'd think that the better general healthcare and hygiene these days would lessen it, but the sheer increase in how we're connected would easily wipe that advantage off the board.

[-] Nougat@kbin.social 3 points 11 months ago

And the mRNA technology has been in progress for 50 years. That’s why it didn’t take long to create a COVID vaccine

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[-] Nollij@sopuli.xyz 30 points 11 months ago

Something tells me mRNA is irrelevant. It's a common talking point among anti-vaxxers, and is typically nothing more than an excuse. It's also a form of gish-galloping, where they pile a bunch of bullshit on you and make you defend it.

Ask them some follow-up questions like these. I suspect the trend will become clear.

  1. What are your thoughts on the more traditional non-mRNA covid vaccines, such as the ones from J&J or Novavax (or whatever you have in your area)?

  2. When was the last time you got any vaccine, including a flu shot?

  3. If you had the choice today, would you get the well-established vaccines such as polio or measles, mumps, rubella (MMR)?

Once you have these answers, you'll know if they are truly concerned about mRNA being new or if it's something else.

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[-] Wahots@pawb.social 27 points 11 months ago

Scientists have been working on them for decades, they are fine. Your risk of dying or getting injuries from not getting the vaccines is way, way higher.

[-] Chriswild@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

They've been given to billions of people at this point and with a sample size that large it's surprising how safe they are.

[-] amio@kbin.social 19 points 11 months ago

Why, are they OK with other vaccines?

Listening to an antivaxxer is a mistake - every time.

The risks of any specific vaccine must be judged against the risk of actually getting whatever disease. If the vaccines for whatever disease were as/more likely to fuck you up than the disease, then there wouldn't be any point, and they wouldn't get approved.

[-] Dudewitbow@lemmy.zip 16 points 11 months ago

The fear for some is because of how fast tracked the mrna vaccine was, but mrna research by any means is not new. The idea has been in the air for decades and saw very limited trials when the Ebola outbreak happened, but due to it not spreading, there was no need to mass create mrna vaccines at the time at a commercial/global scale.

[-] Ranvier@sopuli.xyz 11 points 11 months ago

It wasn't exactly "fast tracked," a little misleading phrase (not helped by the official name of the operation called "warp speed") that I think makes people more nervous than they need to me. This kind of implies they didn't go through the same testing as other vaccines. They have gone through the same stringent criteria as any other vaccine at this point. A lot of what was done to speed things up was the government subsidizing and risk guaranteeing, so multiple steps in vaccine testing and deployment could be done in parellel rather than in series. Normally you wouldn't be mass producing experimental vaccine doses or medications before you know they work, or else you've wasted a ton of money. To speed things up the government basically said they would cover the losses on the vaccines if they ended up being useless. This allowed production of these vaccines to start being distributed as soon as the research was complete. Otherwise they wouldn't have been churning out millions of doses already with a lot already stockpiled and giving doses of it to icu staff only three days after it got emergency authorization (full formal approval would follow about nine months later).

Honestly people get way more nervous about vaccines than they really need to be. Some of the lowest risk things we use in all of medicine. Though not that they shouldn't be, since they're deployed on such a mass scale.

[-] Zippy@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago

They been around for some time. Sped up testing significantly during COVID but with COVID they have a massive data set to verify it's safety. Likely factors more then most drugs. I am personally pretty confident in the usage of RMA proceedures.

[-] DampSquid@feddit.uk 13 points 11 months ago
[-] Buffalox@lemmy.world 9 points 11 months ago

No on the contrary, mRNA is really brilliant, in my very limited understanding, instead of injecting you with a weakened disease, you get the learning process against it instead. This is actually a lot safer than other types of vaccine, and many times safer than getting the virus without having the vaccine.

I live in Denmark, and Denmark chose to use mRNA exclusively because they are both the safest and provide the best protection, Denmark is also one of the countries that have had fewest problems with COVID in the world, because we have very high rate of mRNA vaccinated people.

So you don't have to experiment yourself, it's already been done on a massive scale, and the result is clear.

[-] Tinkerer@lemmy.ca 7 points 11 months ago

I listened to a podcast 2 years ago that explained the history of covid/vaccines and where covid came from. I really wish I could remember what it was called but it was fantastic, I sent it to my family members who were anti-vax

[-] Chetzemoka@startrek.website 7 points 11 months ago

This Podcast Will Kill You

They did a whole series on Covid including the history of development of vaccines

[-] bluGill@kbin.social 4 points 11 months ago

Your body creates and uses RNA all the time. If there was a problem it would show up nearly instantly. Anything else is something all vaccines do, so we can look to smallpox vaccines which are more than 200 years old for those effects. If there is anything else life itself wouldn't be possible as RNA is critical to how life functions.

[-] stinerman@midwest.social 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Unless the friend has training as a microbiologist or something similar their belief is inconsequential. And even then they would be in the vast minority in their field (like a geologist that believes oil doesn't come from the heat and compression of ancient organic matter).

A lot of people are afraid of new things they don't understand. The hope is that people realize that the fear is irrational and listen to experts in the relevant field.

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this post was submitted on 04 Jan 2024
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