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submitted 10 months ago by Tekkip20@lemmy.world to c/linux@lemmy.ml

I made this post because I am really curious if Linux is used in offices and educational centres like schools.

While we all know Windows is the mac-daddy in the business space, are there any businesses you know or workplaces that actually Linux as a business replacement for Windows?

I.e. Mint or Ubuntu, I am not strictly talking about the server side of things.

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[-] TCB13@lemmy.world 50 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Linux in corporation fails in multiple ways, the most prevalent is that people need to collaborate with others that use proprietary software such as MS Office that isn't available for Linux and the alternatives such as LibreOffice aren't just good enough. It all comes down to ROI, the cost of Windows/Office for a company is cheaper than the cost of dealing with the inconsistencies in format conversions, people who don't know how to use the alternative X etc etc. This issue is so common that companies usually also avoid Apple due to the same reason, while on macOS you've a LOT more professional software it is still very painful to deal with the small inconsistencies and whatnot.

Linux desktop is great, I love it, but it gets it even worse than Apple, here some use cases that aren't easy to deal in Linux:

  • People who need the real MS Office because once you have to collaborate with others Open/Libre/OnlyOffice won’t cut it;
  • Designers who use Adobe apps that won’t run properly without having a dedicated GPU, passthrough and a some hacky way to get the image back into your main system that will cause noticeable delays. Who wants to deploy GPU passthroughs for others? Makes no sense;
  • People that run old software / games because not even those will run properly on Wine;
  • Electrical engineers: Circuit Design Suite (Multisim and Ultiboard) are primarily designed for Windows. Alternatives such as KiCad and EasyEDA may work in some cases but they aren’t great if you’ve to collaborate with others who use Circuit Design Suite;
  • Labs that require data acquisition from specialized hardware because companies making that hardware won’t make drivers and software for Linux;
  • Architects: AutoCAD isn’t available (not even the limited web version works) and Libre/FreeCAD don’t cut it if you’ve to collaborate with AutoCAD users;
  • Developers and sysadmins, because not everyone is using Docker and Github actions to deploy applications to some proprietary cloud solution. Finding a properly working FTP/SFTP/FTPS desktop client (similar WinSCP or Cyberduck) is an impossible task as the ones that exist fail even at basic tasks like dragging and dropping a file.

If one lives in a bubble and doesn’t to collaborate with others then native Linux apps might work and might even deliver a decent workflow. Once collaboration with Windows/Mac users is required then it’s game over – the “alternatives” aren’t just up to it.

Windows licenses are cheap and things work out of the box. Software runs fine, all vendors support whatever you’re trying to do and you’re productive from day zero. Sure, there are annoyances from time to time, but they’re way fewer and simpler to deal with than the hoops you’ve to go through to get a minimal and viable/productive Linux desktop experience. It all comes down to a question of how much time (days? months?) you want to spend fixing things on Linux that simply work out of the box under Windows for a minimal fee. Buy a Windows license and spend the time you would’ve spent dealing with Linux issues doing your actual job and you’ll, most likely, get a better ROI.

From a more market / macro perspective here are some extra reasons:

  • Companies like blame someone when things go wrong, if they chose open-source there's isn't someone to sue then;
  • Buying proprietary stuff means you're outsourcing the risks of such product;
  • Corruption pushes for proprietary: they might be buying software that is made by someone that is close to the CTO, CEO or other decision marker in the company, an old friend, family or straight under the table corruption;
  • Most non-tech companies use services from consulting companies in order to get their software developed / running. Consulting companies often fall under the last point that besides that they have have large incentives from companies like Microsoft to push their proprietary services. For eg. Microsoft will easily provide all of a consulting companies employees with free Azure services, Office and other discounts if they enter in an exclusivity agreement to sell their tech stack. To make things worse consulting companies live of cheap developers (like interns) and Microsoft and their platform makes things easier for anyone to code and deploy;
  • Microsoft provider a cohesive ecosystem of products that integrate really well with each other and usually don't require much effort to get things going - open-source however, usually requires custom development and a ton of work to work out the "sharp angles" between multiple solutions that aren't related and might not be easily compatible with each other;
  • Open-source requires a level of expertise that more than half of the developers and IT professionals simply don't have. This aspect reinforces the last point even more. Senior open-source experts are more expensive than simply buying proprietary solutions;
  • If we consider the price of a senior open-source expert + software costs (usually free) the cost of open-source is considerable lower than the cost of cheap developers + proprietary solutions, however consider we are talking about companies. Companies will always prefer to hire more less expensive and less proficient people because that means they're easier to replace and you'll pay less taxes;
  • Companies will prefer to hire services from other companies instead of employees thus making proprietary vendors more compelling. This happens because from an accounting / investors perspective employees are bad and subscriptions are cool (less taxes, no responsibilities etc);
  • The companies who build proprietary solutions work really hard to get vendors to sell their software, they provide commissions, support and the promises that if anything goes wrong they'll be there. This increases the number of proprietary-only vendors which reinforces everything above. If you're starting to sell software or networking services there's little incentive for you to go pure "open-source". With less companies, less visibility, less professionals (and more expensive), less margins and less positive market image, less customers and lesser profits.

Unfortunately things are really poised and rigged against open-source solutions and anyone who tries to push for them. The "experts" who work in consulting companies are part of this as they usually don't even know how to do things without the property solutions. Let me give you an example, once I had to work with E&Y, one of those big consulting companies, and I realized some awkward things while having conversations with both low level employees and partners / middle management, they weren't aware that there are alternatives most of the time. A manager of a digital transformation and cloud solutions team that started his career E&Y, wasn't aware that there was open-source alternatives to Google Workplace and Microsoft 365 for e-mail. I probed a TON around that and the guy, a software engineer with an university degree, didn't even know that was Postfix was and the history of email.

[-] library_napper@monyet.cc 19 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Lots of justification in this. Just be the change you want to see.

I only work with libre formats at work. If someone wants to collaborate, they can easily install libre office or gimp or freecad or gnu cash or whatever. Most libre software is free and cross-platform.

[-] CallumWells@lemmy.ml 13 points 10 months ago

I salute you. Not many that are willing to do so. Maybe because most people don't have very deep convictions on using FLOSS. It is easier to just do what everyone else does, after all.

[-] bouh@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

I think the opposite. Working on windows is a pain in the ass. Like the system is not made for working and barely support it for actual computer work.

If you only use office or play video games, it's good, certainly, and it's good for the security team to have everyone with it because the system is built to only allow specific actions to be done. It's completely inapt for actual engineering and technical work.

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[-] bouh@lemmy.world 15 points 10 months ago

I've been a sysadmin for years and I worked longer on Linux than I did on Windows.

Many of your points are management bullshit. The proof? In France the gendarmerie (country police) moved to Linux about a decade ago.

The thing with windows is usually that management want a whole solution out of the box, from a renowned editor, so basically Microsoft. The key point is that they want a contract with a company so they can discard the responsability of failures on someone out of their own company. The second feature is that they are boomers or anti-nerds, so they are never going to be seen using something on a computer that's not mainstream.

The last problem is from Microsoft that worked hard these last years to remove any compatibility between office and other softwares of this kind. They also enshitified office365 very hard so that is doesn't work well on Linux.

The question of the price is a fraud. Large companies need an it service for Windows on top of the licences and infrastructure. It's way cheaper with Linux. The biggest work with an enterprise Linux is to make it compatible with the shitty Windows environment, and the compliance with the useless security thought for windows.

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[-] LeFantome@programming.dev 8 points 10 months ago

Well thought out post and largely true.

As a small counterpoint, I am supposed to use Windows at work but I use Linux. I would say that I am a “very heavy” but intermediate Microsoft Office user. That is, while I am not expert level in Office, I have to create and consume multiple documents per day. I give ( or submit ) several PowerPoints per week. These typically use templates supplied by Marketing or others. I create and consume multiple Excel files daily which almost always have multiple worksheets. I must admit that I have gotten authoring Word files down to maybe one per week but I open 3 a day at least.

Of course, I do not actually use Microsoft Office most of the time. Most of the above is in LibreOffice. I spend a tonne of my day in Outlook which I use in a browser ( Office 365 ). If I am opening a document from an email, it will often open in Office 365 online ( in my browser in Linux ). So do I use Microsoft Office quite a bit but rarely author anything there. While I prefer Firefox, I use Microsoft Edge on Linux and most often that is where I have Outlook open. Sadly, I have at least 3 to 4 Microsoft Teams meetings a day. Teams and GoToMeeting are why I started using Edge. It is just a nicer workflow if Teams and Outlook are in the same browser.

Anyway, I have very little problem exchanging documents. I had to switch to default fonts that Windows users will have of course but that was long ago now. So, I would not say that “alternatives such as LibreOffice aren’t just good enough” is a fair assessment for everybody. If I was an expert user in any one app ( in Finance maybe ) I could see this being true but I bet most office workers could use LibreOffice just fine these days.

Outside of Office, most of what I use are web applications which work just as well on Linux. I use containers a lot and they work better on Linux. Linux is quite bit snappier on the same hardware.

I am just a datapoint though and the issues you raise are real. I would perhaps just be less absolute about it. Trying Linux can still make sense. Also, you can try LibreOffice on Windows before jumping all the way to Linux.

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[-] Steamymoomilk@sh.itjust.works 31 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I know lowes uses linux for there registers and help desks. 1000006548

[-] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 6 points 10 months ago

I forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder

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[-] FrostyPolicy@suppo.fi 24 points 10 months ago

In two of my previous jobs (I'm a software engineer) I could officially install any Linux distro to the company laptop (which I did of course) fully replacing the wintoys. Could use the machine as I liked, no corporate mandated BS spyware or anything. On of the provides a SaaS product and used Linux server/virtual machines. Otherwise it was mostly MS bits + sprinkle a little Atlanssian horrors to it.

Unfortunately in my current job I'm limited a VirtualBox Linux running a corporate restricted wintoys machine in a MS environment. A long for the days when I was more productive with my Linux installation.

It's just sad and funny how corporate world is that MS products it has to be (because reasons).

[-] onlinepersona@programming.dev 13 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I was stuck in MacOS hell for some time. Now I won't accept jobs that mandate an OS for devs. It's either free choice, or I'm gone. Fuck that noise.

Was also in a company where Linux in a VM was the only option because it was a windows shop. Glad I quit that.

May the virtualized penguin bestow you with strength!

CC BY-NC-SA 4.0

[-] Discover5164@lemm.ee 4 points 10 months ago

i'm stuck with windows, but i moved everything inside WSL... so at least vscode it's on Linux.

i'm a heavy multitasker used to tiling WMs, multiple desktops on windows is torture.

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[-] onlinepersona@programming.dev 23 points 10 months ago

In Europe, there are companies that allow devs to use whatever they like (worked for some of those). Linux is more popular among devs than mac, but less popular than windows. I even have a friend working at a company that's 100% opensource, much to their chagrin as GIMP and Inkscape are no Photoshop.

Linux at school might become more of a thing in Germany as Microsoft 365 office online (or whatever it's called) is in a dangerous spot where it might be banned from schools. IIRC nextcloud and owncloud are positioning themselves to replace it and with that, maybe linux on the desktop might be considered. But since they have a problem with "Apple ambassadors" (aka teachers prostituting themselves for Apple), the real danger exists that schools will be more willing to spend money on fancy mac bullshit than linux. Only time will tell.

[-] alvanrahimli@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago

Can you please share some info about why office 365 is in a dangerous spot in Germany? Very based country btw, this might be the reason why they donated 1M to GNOME project, considering it public interest project.

[-] WeLoveCastingSpellz@lemmy.dbzer0.com 21 points 10 months ago

Don't be so humble. You know, I started out exactly where you are, and to be honest, you know, my heart is still there. So I see you're running Gnome. You know, I'm actually on KDE myself. I know this desktop environment is supposed to be better but you know what they say. Old habits they die hard. Yeah, I know what you're thinking. I'm an executive. I mean why am I even running Linux? Again old habits. It's gonna be fun working with you. I should join the rest of the group. Bonsoir, Elliot.

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[-] thesmokingman@programming.dev 18 points 10 months ago

I have attended or been involved with five different state universities and a few different community colleges. For computer science, aside from one glaring exception, the default has been some flavor of Linux. The earliest for me at a school was Fedora 7. I think they had been running Solaris in the late 90s; not sure what was before that.

The only glaring exception is Georgia Tech. Because of the spyware you have to install for tests, you have to use Windows. Windows in a VM can be flagged as cheating. I’m naming and shaming Georgia Tech because they push their online courses hard and then require an operating system that isn’t standard for all the other places I’ve been or audited courses.

[-] Falcon@lemmy.world 10 points 10 months ago

It’s much the same where I come from.

The high quality institutions have Linux in their labs (either a separate lab or dual boot) and a server with say access for training ML models etc.

The dodgy ones have only Windows with no software and require students to buy a second laptop and install Linux. If they don’t the students fail. Those tests were done in handwriting but they are still an accredited university :(

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[-] KazuyaDarklight@lemmy.world 14 points 10 months ago

While I'm told such places exist, I have yet to knowingly interact with a business officially doing this for employee computers.

[-] MoonMelon@lemmy.ml 14 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

When I worked in VFX it was mostly Scientific Linux. A few macs were around for concept artists using Photoshop, and editorial using a proprietary video codec with Final Cut. Most business folks (in vfx called "coordinators" and "producers") used tools that were web-based and cross platform (for example, Autodesk Shotgrid, Confluence, and Jira). A lot of internal development is done in Python so no worries there, either.

In game dev unfortunately it's exclusively Windows. If you bring up even using os.path.join, instead of hardcoding \\ into paths, devs who have never worked in another OS look at you like some sort of paranoid maniac.

[-] Kanedias@lemmy.ml 14 points 10 months ago

We spent 1 year negotiating implementation of secure Linux workstation, and now after endless meetings and agreements I can proudly say we have 5 people with fully GNU/Linux laptops! Dell XPS, to be precise.

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[-] BCsven@lemmy.ca 13 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

There was an interview with Dreamworks ( i think that was the Animation house) they use linux for everything.

In engineering CAD and large manufacturing corporations RHEL and SUSE are the two certified distros for running Teamcenter Product Lifecycle Management softare and Siemens NX CAD/CAM/FEA software (up to version 12) it is a smaller market than Windows versions, but probably took the place of the original unix versions prior to 2000

[-] knobbysideup@sh.itjust.works 13 points 10 months ago

Any web hosting company will use Linux for all servers, and many developers will use it as their workstation as they tire of kludging together dev environments in windows. The devops engineers will most certainly be on Linux as that is where their tool chains live.

There are government agencies that use Linux exclusively. The DoD used to have a mandate to use oss. I'm not sure if it is still the case.

Scientists, HPC.

[-] Lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.ml 11 points 10 months ago

From what I've heard, it's more common in Europe and parts of Asia. I've personally never seen significant Linux use of any kind in the IT environments I work in, sadly.

It's all Microsoft product stacks, the servers, the endpoints, the cloud environment, all MS. Sometimes their Hypervisor would be VMWare, and their NAS was a Synology. But other than that, basically all Microsoft garbage.

I did work at one place that had a fair bit of Linux infrastructure. The lead network architect was a hardcore Linux/FOSS grognard. Really smart guy and was fantastic at his job, I learned a lot from him. But the only reason that company had Linux servers and a few FOSS implementations was because that guy insisted on it and managed all of it himself.

I also worked at another place where one of the older IT guys had installed a handful of SUSE thin clients at various locations for employees to clock in with. But right after I started there, management wanted me to switch them out for Windows thin clients. I pushed back but they insisted, so there went the tiny bit of Linux at that company.

[-] beerclue@lemmy.world 11 points 10 months ago

At my current job, our department (DevOps), uses Linux (arch). A couple of devs too (Ubuntu), the rest use a mix of Macs and Windows. The Online versions of Office work just fine, there is Teams, Azure login and even Intune for Linux now.

At my previous job, most of the company used Windows, but the devs were using 90% Linux (Ubuntu), some of them with 2 machines (laptop and workstation with GPU, point cloud stuff). Ah, the good ole days of Ubuntu 16 and Nvidia drivers 🥲

The job before that, a very small company, mostly devs, we were using half Windows, half Linux (mint).

This is Germany btw.

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[-] OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml 11 points 10 months ago

My past 2 jobs have been Linux Desktop. The one before that was WSL (ew)

[-] library_napper@monyet.cc 10 points 10 months ago

I have only ever used Linux at work. I tried amacbookd once, then switched back to Linux.

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[-] Illecors@lemmy.cafe 8 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I'm lucky enough to be in a company where Windows is banned by the CEO. Granted, there are 4 (I believe) exceptions, but the vast majority of employees have an Ubuntu workstation and everyone has a macbook. A bit of a shame this macbook thing, really. A 2 grand thin client to ssh into my desktop when working remotely :D

The exceptions being client testing envs.

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[-] Seasm0ke@lemmy.world 8 points 10 months ago

Well plenty of VMS in enterprise or corporate environments use Linux. Tenant appliances, User access gateways, DNS forwarders, web app servers in docker containers, maybe even some load balancers and siem appliances. For corporate Desktops however I've only really seen thin clients running Linux before sign in to windows VDI, and that gets phased out with Windows for IoT

[-] node815@lemmy.world 8 points 10 months ago

Several years back, I was 100% Windows based, and only knew Linux from the web hosting scene and running VPS Systems. I landed my current job which uses 100% Linux based OS's on their customer's equipment and software, Since then, I've gained a mountain of knowledge in the Linux admin and user space to feel comfortable enough to use it full time 100% in my household and administer it.

I think you would be surprised to see Linux more widespread out there, for example, a Raspberry Pi running Raspbian out in the wild mid reboot on signage or other displays, or being part of the brain boxes in industrial machinery. Then of course, - if you have an Android phone - well...that's a form of Linux as well. :)

[-] gbrown@transfem.space 7 points 10 months ago

This might be cheating a bit since I am a computer science student, but we have Linux servers we can access for classes, and our university library has a maker space that has some computers running Ubuntu in it.

[-] daniskarma@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago

I know some schools in my country use their own linux distribution on pair with windows. And my organization has also their own linux distribution but it is barely used really. I dont know anyone who uses it, but I do know it exists.

[-] ReakDuck@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago

The company I work at uses Kubuntu. At least the devs.

It was amazing finding this out as a Linux user.

[-] pastermil@sh.itjust.works 6 points 10 months ago

At my company, we use ubuntu for the simple reason that our servers are running it.

[-] joshcodes@programming.dev 6 points 10 months ago

I work in cyber security. Loads of businesses will do all the cybersecurity stuff using a combination of tools on Azure and security OS's like Kali and Parrot.

[-] AlmightySnoo@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago

It depends. I'm working in the quant department of a bank and we work on pricing libraries that the traders then use. Since traders often use Excel and expect add-ins, we have a mostly Windows environment. Our head of CI, a huge Windows and Powershell fan, once then decided to add a few servers with Linux (RHEL) on them to have automated Valgrind checks and gcc/clang builds there to continuously test our builds for warnings, undefined behavior (gcc with O3 does catch a few of them) and stuff.

I thought cool, at least Linux is making it into this department. Then I logged into one of those servers.

The fucker didn't like the default file system hierarchy and did stuff like /Applications and `/Temp' and is installing programs by manually downloading binaries and extracting them there.

[-] knexcar@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

To be fair, the three-letter directories aren't particularly intuitive. "Bin"? Like the "Recycle Bin"? Or is it short for "Binary" files? But isn't everything on the computer stored in binary? Is "dev" for developers? Is "run" for running programs? Is "opt" for options? What is "ect" even for, files that can't find another home? In Windows, the folder names make sense and have complete sentences like "Program Files" and "Users". I can understand someone wanting to replicate the same thing on Linux.

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[-] 000@fuck.markets 5 points 10 months ago

We run thousands of Red Hat VMs at my company (and probably as many Windows), and several of my colleagues run various distros on their laptops with all our required desktop tools/security agents.

[-] janus2@lemmy.zip 5 points 10 months ago

Anecdotally and perhaps of interest, my current workplace uses a regular Dell PC running lightly customised 10-year-old OpenSUSE. It's a UI control interface for a large machine

Because the machine's expensive and production-critical, the PC isn't allowed to be connected to any networks (security airgap). It's sort of the antithesis of most corporate Linux usage: constantly online servers that do very little direct user interface

[-] terminhell@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 10 months ago

Generally I'll see it used for POS type machines, or relegated to a backend database that gets logged into for parts lookup or something. Have I seen Jimbo in accounting rocking Gentoo on the company PC. Never.

I've ran across a few professors at nearby colleges using it. Last I remember was a nuclear physicists prof using opensuse.

[-] CorrodedCranium@leminal.space 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Munich's city government switched to Linux for a few years as part of a push towards open source software.

There's some programs like One Laptop per Child that donate laptops running Linux to education programs. I think Pine64 ended up donating a chunk of their base-level Pinebooks to some schools but I can't find a blog post that states where they donated them to.

Not sure if this is what you were looking for.

[-] Godort@lemm.ee 4 points 10 months ago

It's staggeringly uncommon for the desktop side of things outside of machines running a specialty app or a particularly tech-savvy IT guy.

The issue is that Windows is just really good at centralized user management and policy control. You can do all those things in Linux too but it's significantly more complicated and harder to manage.

[-] GrappleHat@lemmy.ml 4 points 10 months ago

I use Linux at the office. I'm the only employee at my company who does.

I haven't had many issues collaborating with others using libreoffice while they use MS office. I do keep a Windows VM running for those somewhat rare instances where I need Windows for something though. I also needed to invest quite some time to figure out Linux alternatives for everything (how to use company VPN, how to get MS Teams working, how to connect to network drives, etc).

But so far so good. Been 100% Linux at work for maybe ~1.5 years?

[-] jackpot@lemmy.ml 4 points 10 months ago

you should keep a list and tell management how much software costs youre saving and how that can be scaled for every employee

[-] tourist@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

My university dual booted Windows 10 and Ubuntu (science department computer labs only)

All the other departments just had Windows 10, except for Engineering, which used Windows 7 for some fucking reason. I hope I'm remembering wrong.

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this post was submitted on 08 Jan 2024
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Linux

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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

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