At what point do you start to think "Huh, maybe this DOESN'T work..."
The thing about sovereign citizens is that the "rules" they're taught are always so arcane and convoluted that their the conman "teaching" them can always point to something they didn't do correctly. So people like the one in this post will be told "Oh, you cited the Magna Carta and correctly declared yourself a ship at sea, but you failed to hop on one leg while reciting the 'Corpus Juris Civilis' backwards, that means you did it wrong and the State still had power over you."
Magic is the same way. The bigger the claim of the spell the harder it is to do the ritual. That way you are more invested in it working. When you look at very simple spells the claims are much smaller. Like a rope binding ceremony. Takes a few minutes and it claims to make you feel a bit better about stuff vs one spell that claims you can talk to demons but only if you basically live without food showering and sleep for a month.
For some reason I'm now imagining a failed casting of Resurrection in D&D getting traced to the required diamond worth at least 1000 gold losing its value because someone recently found a rich diamond vein and it caused all diamonds to depreciate in value.
Imagine a campaign where all gemstones need appraising by some (hidden) skill check. The true value is simply hidden from the players. The gem sellers naturally overprice their wares as well, so you can never be truly certain that this diamond you paid 500g for is worth at least the 300g needed for that Revivify.
(I am aware that this idea is terrible)
If they understood the concept of testing a theory and looking at data, they wouldn't be where they are.
So, never? They'll just claim they're persecuted.
Every one Ive seen get the hint is usually when they go to jail for contempt for a few days.
Makes me wonder if judges who show them leniency do so out of pity or spite.
why not both
Judge, maliciously: wait, let him cook
They only ever try this shit for small relatively inconsequential stuff and since most sovereign citizens are middle class people a lot of them do kind of get away with it (not because of the sovereign citizen stuff but because it's small potatoes and the justice system is kinder to middle class people than it is to poor people, so their case/charges often get dropped or dismissed or they get a good deal, etc) and I'm pretty sure that leads them to believing that it does work more often than not and they tell all their friends at the next BBQ about how they totally beat the system with this one neat trick. Like I've never heard of a sovereign citizen trying this shit for stuff like grand theft, assault, murder, etc. It's always stuff like low level traffic violations, which are already things they're likely to only get a slap on the wrist for.
This strikes me as similar to flat earth, in that if you even bothered to think about it for a minute you'd realize it couldn't possibly be the case.
Is there a massive global conspiracy involving hundreds of millions of people which doesn't benefit anyone...hmm... probably not.
Or, could we have a civilization if people could just opt out of any responsibility or obligations...hmm... probably not.
I disagree it makes sense in a just but crazy world view.
How many times have you not heard a rich person got Scot free? Or how they seems to get so many benefits that you and I don't get.
It always seems to involved with lawyers. A group of people that using very specific language.
Maybe they bake in loopholes were you can say a specific phrase. That the rich can just walk free by uttering them but you don't and end up in prison?
No, that's called money. None of this nonsense makes even an iota of sense.
Thats the thing. Sovereign Citizen stuff starts out sane.
Sane: Naval courts have a weird flags.
Insane: therefore a weird flag means a you are in a naval court
Sane: running a corporation can shield you from civil liabilities. If the corporation gets sued there is a lot less of a chance your life will be ruined.
Insane: I can do whatever I want by calling myself a corporation.
Sane: during the chaos that was the early days of the FDR first administration some accountant decided that everyone just has a sum of money for being born and the government was managing it for them.
Insane: you can tap into this temporary accounting trick from a century ago and get lots of free money.
Sane: lots of laws really do depend on everyone just agreeing what a word means. If a lawyer can shift the meaning slightly unexpected results can occur, on rare occasion.
Insane: I can drive as fast as I want as long as I say I am traveling not driving
Sane: depressingly the wealthy and powerful are often shielded from the results of their actions to an extent
Insane: I can do what I want as long as I pay off a judge.
Cargo cult logic.
Wow! That is a spot on insight I didn't notice. Good job!
Thanks, really good way of framing it.
Administrative process? Under whose authority? Don't they by definition reject authority?
The best summary of sovereign citizens I've seen is that they treat the law as a djinn that can be bound to their will if they speak the proper legal spells. As such in sovereign citizen world they are completely immune to any sort of legal restraints or obligations, but at the same time they can cast spells to make the djinn prosecute whomever they want.
For some reason, really enjoy watching these people get destroyed by the legal process, but I suppose that's because I subscribe to it as our common social contract.
There's also things I don't like, and I understand the desire to rail against the system. But I hope I would do it a little smarter...
They are just sad and mislead people. I'd rather have some real assholes have their comeuppance, imho
I have a hard time watching sovereign citizen videos without thinking that these people are real assholes, too. It's like the self-entitled Karen "I wanna talk to your manager" types, but much, much, much worse.
They are. I think they try and emulate the way they think rich people operate. They pretend to be above the law.
However I think they are misled and unlike what they aspire to be they will feel the wrath of the system, and it isn't kind. In all I feel pity, though, they are desparate human beings that are extorted and manipulated.
I would rather see the real rich bastards swallowing the bitter pills they will have to swallow.
Those guys are so stupid, it is actually fun to watch (here from abroad).
How many of those stunts does it take before they put such a nutcase in the loony bin where he belongs?
(here from abroad)
I used to laugh at Americans for sovereign citizens.
Then I laughed at German Reichsburger.
And now we've got Autonomous people here in the Netherlands.
I'm still laughing at them, don't get me wrong, but I'd be surprised if you don't have a national version of the same thing. The funniest thing is when they make references to legal systems that are clearly not yours. Our constitution doesn't have amendments, for example, but that doesn't stop them.
Well, those nutty Reichsbürger are ours, but overall, they are way less dangerous than the SCs in the US. Sounds like your Autonomous Citizens are as stupid as ours.
More likely they'll just bankrupt the guy.
No loss, either.
I wanna see the follow up post!
She sent this letter and then never posted again..
Of course it’s notarized. Is this whole thing just a scam by notaries to drum up more reasons to notarize documents? /s
If I were a notary and the sovcits came to me to notarize their stupid documents I'd be like 'LOL sure" and charge them double.
A notary is just witnesses that an important document exists and save a copy of what they saw. I don’t think there’s any expectation that they verify things like correctness or legality. They’re not paid to have an opinion
Wow! It must be because she went on an extended vacation with all that money she got! :P
An extended vacation to a hotel with bars and a metal toilet.
The batshit dumbass refuses to talk to him over the phone... yeah, that'll teach him.
What is secured party creditors?
They think if they become a secured party creditor it means they don't have to pay any debts. It's just another sovcit thing.
The secret is, the more questions you ask the more questions you have!
yeah, good luck with that
Screenshots of people being insane on Facebook. Please censor names/pics of end users in screenshots. Please follow the rules of lemmy.world
