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[-] wesker 172 points 6 months ago

Out of all the segmented degenerate hiveminds in the US, I think sovereign citizens often baffle me the most.

[-] BenVimes@lemmy.ca 82 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

The most profoundly puzzling thing to me is their insistence that magic words will somehow make authorities back off.

Like, they believe that there is this grand conspiracy involving the Federal Reserve and maritime law and birth names and whatever else. And yet they also believe that the forces behind this conspiracy must acquiesce if you just invoke the right language.

Do they never consider that an entity powerful enough to do all that could also just ignore their demands? Like, even if the conspiracy is true, why would its perpetrators just give up because some random person told them to?

[-] DadVolante@sh.itjust.works 40 points 6 months ago

Check out The Freemen. This is pretty much where this stuff came from, whackos in Montana during the 90s who pulled off the longest standoff with the FBI in American history (may have changed since).

They had their own currency (which some locals would actually accept), and they were very, very good at painting themselves as innocent victims.

I believe that because of them and other groups like The Montana Militia are one of the prime influences for this movement.

[-] hanekam@lemmy.world 14 points 6 months ago

It's the same impulse that made medieval people believe they could defend themselves from fairies and demons by saying the right things the right way. Some part of the insanity demands that a person who sees through the illusion can somehow win against the evil conspirators

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[-] Pohl@lemmy.world 68 points 6 months ago

I know right. To be absolutely convinced that there are loopholes in everything and that only the rubes are playing by the rules is one thing. But to maintain that belief in the face of what must become a long string of failures… takes a certain mental toughness to be kind.

I suppose if you look around and everyone else seems to be doing better than you, maybe you assume they must all be cheating and you start looking to get in on the game. A few YouTube holes down the road you think you can pay your child support with secret legal incantations.

[-] wesker 33 points 6 months ago

They're grifters of the self.

[-] Lupus108@feddit.de 14 points 6 months ago

takes a certain mental toughness to be kind.

If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough

[-] CitizenKong@lemmy.world 35 points 6 months ago

We have a similar bunch of wackos in Germany, the Reichsbürger. They claim that the modern German constitution is illegal because the German Empire was never officially disbanded as an entity and therefore they don't have to follow the current laws. Many also dream of reinstating a monarchy and are - surprise! - fascists.

[-] derpgon@programming.dev 13 points 6 months ago

Similarly same is happening in Czechia. Sovcivs claim Czechoslovakia splitting wasn't constitutional or something like that. Similar idea, same bunch of dumb fucks.

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[-] BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.works 11 points 6 months ago

Wasn't it a group of Reichbürgers that got arrested last year for planning a coup in a partnership with right wing military officers?

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[-] SmoothLiquidation@lemmy.world 28 points 6 months ago

I used to be baffled by Flat Earthers until I realized it was just a religious thing.

[-] trebuchet@lemmy.ml 9 points 6 months ago

I find them baffling, what's their deal?

Is it like a religion for them or is there an actual religion?

[-] TheSlad@sh.itjust.works 16 points 6 months ago

No, one of their core arguments is that language in the bible heavily implies that the earth is flat. Nevermind that the bible is a collection of stories from uneducated iron-age fanatics...

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[-] Plavatos@sh.itjust.works 18 points 6 months ago

I'm guessing somewhere up the chain is a person making money from it, probably a book or class that teaches the "secrets." And of course when your sovcit crap fails to work you didn't follow the program to the T.

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[-] SeatBeeSate@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 6 months ago

I'm completely out of the loop, what is this "sovereign citizen" nonsense?

[-] extant@lemmy.world 29 points 6 months ago

It's mental illness and wishful thinking all wrapped up together. They believe whole heartily that if they don't agree to the rules of society they are under no obligation to follow societies rules unless a rule benefits them then they should also benefit. I'm sure there are some who are just using it to grift but I believe a majority of them honestly have some form of mental disability because I watched the trial for Darrel Brooks who decided to drive through a crowd at a parade killing six people and injuring several others and he was literally dumbfounded that he was found guilty because he believed the law didn't apply to him as a sovcit.

[-] frezik@midwest.social 22 points 6 months ago

You know how some people think that a good lawyer can get anyone out of anything if they find the right loophole? SivCits take that to an extreme using completely made up rules. For example, your name printed in ALL CAPS refers to a legal corporation, while normal case refers to you as a human being. If your name is ever printed in all caps, such as on a summons to appear in court, that doesn't actually mean you.

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[-] Corkyskog@sh.itjust.works 15 points 6 months ago

They claim they don't have to follow laws because the flag has fringe on it and something, something, maritime laws. So US law doesn't apply to them.

If that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, it's because Sovereign Citizen doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[-] aesthelete@lemmy.world 13 points 6 months ago

I think it's a wild and varied and disorganized mess dreamed up by people who have left the very idea of being reasonable far behind them long ago.

However, a crucial part of it is certain specific capitalization of words. I think some of them had been using caps lock to post rants on discus for too long and think that it has some magical meaning under law...

I say all that to say that they believe that there's a "legal entity" that is invoked when you capitalize versus plain case someone's name (amongst other things)...and that there is a difference between this "legal entity" and the person in a body...which there frankly plainly and obviously isn't.

Despite being told in court by multiple judges that the capitalization of things does not matter, they persist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement#Immunity_from_laws_and_taxes

I thought the capitalization stuff was kind of a side show, but have since realized that not only is it crucial to their belief system, it also serves as a way to identify them on the Internet. If someone strangely insists on capitalizing certain words or phrases every time they use them and is otherwise very unreasonable, there's a good chance they're a sovcit (or should I say SOVCIT? 🙂).

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[-] TwoBeeSan@lemmy.world 8 points 6 months ago

Like they're just making words up. Living completely in their own world

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[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 52 points 6 months ago

Man, who would have thought they don't take a drawing of a seven legged spider as payment?

[-] BonesOfTheMoon@lemmy.world 15 points 6 months ago

God I love that page.

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[-] ramble81@lemm.ee 30 points 6 months ago

Where’s the “that type of payment “? What was it?

[-] Jiggle_Physics@lemmy.world 62 points 6 months ago

It appears he is trying to pay his bill with a registered security. This can be a number of things but, basically, it's a document showing ownership of some value of something. Stock in a company can be a security, investments in a market index, etc. They have legit value, they are transferable, but they have a fungible value, based on the value of whatever the security is in, at the time it is purchased/sold.

For some reason he seems to believe that because something has a legit, defined, value the company is legally obligated take it as a form of payment. This is completely untrue, of course. They don't even have to take local currency if they don't want to (ex- if you have a $300 bill, and you try to pay in pennies, they have a right to turn down the payment). The UCC 3 he mentions is a form to amend information on a lien.

[-] KISSmyOS@feddit.de 59 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

SCs believe that the United States Corporation uses US citizens as security to take out international loans.
For that purpose, the government opens up a secret bank account in the name of every citizen at birth.
If you know the correct magical mumbo-jumbo language, you can release the money deposited in that account for yourself and use it to pay for things, since you aren't a member of the corporation anymore.

[-] Jiggle_Physics@lemmy.world 23 points 6 months ago

JFC. There is financial, and political, illiteracy, then there is this. It's like they worked on the illiteracy, made it something beyond that, and then honed it, super illiteracy, if you will. I mean, the government, in a very round about way, does secure loans on it's people. However that is because the people create economic value. That value, and it's historical stability, are some of the metrics used.

Maybe they heard about how corporations take out insurance on their employees, and have accounts that can pay-out on their death, smoked a bunch of meth and extrapolated this shit out of it?

[-] KISSmyOS@feddit.de 11 points 6 months ago

More importantly, the scammers who came up with this shit figured out a way to promise their marks easy access to a secret stash of money, and all they have to do to claim it is buy a how-to guide for several hundred dollars in real cash.

[-] PrettyLights@lemmy.world 9 points 6 months ago

The logic is great on this. "Give me your worthless dollars and I'll give you this secret currency that is actually valuable."

Why would anyone want USD when they claim it will be worthless soon? The exchange makes no sense for the seller if true. Same idea for the gold and silver grifters charging way over melt.

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[-] 4am@lemm.ee 9 points 6 months ago

It’s because they make these people, who have felt lost in this world we made their whole lives, have been given a beacon of hope that they’ve finally got it figured out, they’re finally getting the upper hand.

None of this shit is presented to them the way we see it; when they stumble upon the world of SC it’s much the same and Qanon shit- they’re special and they’re being welcomed into knowledge that can CHANGE things for them. “This is what they should have taught in school instead of that boring crap that I couldn’t pay attention to”.

And yea for lots of em that’s because they’re arrogant and thought they already knew it all; for others they simply got left behind. Sad either way.

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[-] Donut@leminal.space 11 points 6 months ago

It's like the Matrix but late-stage capitalistic

[-] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 8 points 6 months ago

Nice. Every batshit concept has a soupçon of truth.

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[-] vrek@programming.dev 11 points 6 months ago

There is law that they must accept any official us currency to pay debts. This is not official us currency.

If this is a prepaid phone then it doesn't matter. They can say they accept/decline any payment they want if you have not received the goods/services yet.

[-] drolex@sopuli.xyz 25 points 6 months ago

But sir, I don't understand, I only answer to maritime law (Caribbean pirate locale) as I made abundantly clear in the missives I sent - no to you because I don't partake in so-called 'legal shipment' schemes. I must assume you didn't receive the message in a bottle I sent but I'm not responsible for this. Therefore you have to accept the payment I sent (strangely you received this one) in the form of a letter of change from the Germano-Papuan Trade Company.

[-] Jiggle_Physics@lemmy.world 20 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

There is law that they must accept any official us currency to pay debts. This is not official us currency.

The following is according to the federal reserve. It may be different in another country, but it looks like this post is from the US.

There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law that says otherwise.

This is why, when people are pissed about a bill, then try to pay several hundred dollars in pennies, the place can turn the payment down.

[-] DadVolante@sh.itjust.works 13 points 6 months ago

Since 2020 this has become a really popular conspiracy in the States, that we are marching towards a "cashless society" that will doom us all.

Had a friend from high school say that not accepting cash is an "illegal transaction" and that the tattoo place he wanted to go to should be investigated for it.

Muricans really do need to all be special little peeps, I guess

[-] Jiggle_Physics@lemmy.world 11 points 6 months ago

Funny thing is, there is reason to believe we are moving towards a cashless society, and there are concerning possible outcomes of this. But it's like they were smoking meth when thinking about this and made it, whatever that is, in their mind.

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[-] brb@sh.itjust.works 9 points 6 months ago

What is sovereign citizen?

[-] BonesOfTheMoon@lemmy.world 17 points 6 months ago

It's a loose term for a bunch of lunatics who believe they are not subject to government laws or taxes. They use fake license plates, do not have drivers licenses, send in fake magic coupons to pay their bills, and believe that signing in red ink at a 45 degree angle conveys special powers. They're an absolute trip and I highly recommend watching some YouTube videos of them being pulled over, they refuse to cooperate, yell repeatedly 'am I being detained ', and it almost always ends up with a window smash and dragging out of the car. It's endlessly entertaining.

[-] WaxedWookie@lemmy.world 9 points 6 months ago

TL:DR: People that (incorrectly) think they know the magic words to escape legal consequences.

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this post was submitted on 24 Jan 2024
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