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submitted 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) by Wordplay@hexbear.net to c/main@hexbear.net

I've been working on a multi-year project to closely read and comprehensively annotate significant writings in the history of philosophy up to the end of the 20th century. Being able to teach this material at a high level, and to critically evaluate and engage with contemporary critical theory, are the two attractors at which this project is aimed, so writings outside of the traditional western analytic canon of philosophy have been included (from Adorno to Zhuangzi).

However, in the last few months I've come to realize that what is missing from this attempt at a comprehensive engagement with the history of philosophy is a historical lens that can help situate these thinkers and their writings in their material, historical contexts. By reading these thinkers mostly chronologically, I'm at a vantage where I can see how many of these thinkers are in dialogue with their predecessors, but this alone is insufficient for understanding their intellectual production and thought, since it misses how such production might be the outgrowth of the particular material conditions permeating their existence. (I'm thinking here of Adam Smith theorizing about an already nascent capitalism; John Locke theorizing about liberalized monarchies after the English revolution of England, etc.)

So this set me in search of complementary material histories that I could pair with the various periods within my project. Materialist histories like Arrighi's The Long Twentieth Century, E.P. Thompson's The Making of the English Working Class, The Long 19th Century (Hobsbawm), and even this reddit post which sums up how the Holocaust can be effectively explained by a marxian approach; all of these clearly back-up Marx's bold claim found in the title of this post, at least for the last five centuries.

However, I have yet to find anything quite as accomplished or detailed for the preceding millennia (something like "A People's History of the World" would be a vulgar approximation; and Graeber and Wengrow's Dawn of Everything seem to intentionally sidestep a marxist account of pre-history in favour of an anarchist flavour).

My question is -- why? If historical materialism bears so much explanatory fruit, why isn't there an accomplished comprehensive account of all hitherto existing society? Plate tectonics, for example, was a theory that gave us an entire history of the earth; evolution, an entire history of life; where is the marxian retrospective? Is it a problem of evidence? A limitation of the medium (i.e. history is too complex and particular to be distilled into one book or one series)? Where is the compendium for the immortal science?

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[-] ComradeRat@hexbear.net 18 points 5 months ago

A limitation of the medium (i.e. history is too complex and particular to be distilled into one book or one series)?

Pretty much yeah, its really a huge topic (the entirety of world history) and not possible to even fully research, much less distill. There's tons of really good marxist histories and general materialist histories; but they tend to be more specific. The broadest book I've seen is Broodbanks The Making of the Middle Sea which only covers the mediterranean from its formation to the onset of the classical era. It isn't a Marxist text, but imo the text itself is the best demonstration of all history being the history of class struggle

Regarding Dawn of Everything, how do you feel it sidesteps a marxist account? I haven't read it yet myself, but what I've heard about their takes on prehistory have fallen generally in line with what a marxist analysis gets you (i.e. extremely diverse and complex societies until the urban monocultures begin swallowing them up)

[-] Wordplay@hexbear.net 6 points 5 months ago

Thank you for your response!

What I meant was that their analysis felt like it complicated traditionally marxist positions, eschewing the deterministic trajectory of history (not a bad thing) and being concerned more with the characteristics of individual freedom within early societies rather than more causal 'class-like' elements that constrain or enable that freedom. While their problematization of centralized hierarchical states does seem to echo the more utopian visions of a post-socialist, communist society, in our given time and in the context of problems of a global scale, it seems appropriate to be skeptical when these past observations start to turn into present prescriptions for adopting 'flexible and creative' forms of organization that have, in the last century, been ineffective at challenging power or ushering in meaningful and lasting alternatives. If you do have a chance to read it, though, I would recommend it.

[-] ComradeRat@hexbear.net 2 points 5 months ago

icic

I haven't read the book yet, but the tendency to turn the observations into prescriptions isn't unique to Graeber & Wengrow so I get what you mean; for me personally I find such takes often sorta act like we won't need decades to centuries of disciplined war-communism to fix the environmental catastrophe we're in without a collapse of globalized society. I do wanna push back slightly on "flexible and creative" forms of organizations' ineffectiveness however--from Afghanistan to China to Vietnam to Cuba to the Houthis today its been repeatedly shown that imperialists can be forced to admit defeat.

I do wanna point out that the traditional Marxist position you outline (deterministic trajectory of history) is, while sadly reflective of many traditional Marxists, not reflective of Marx's own positions (which repeatedly and explicitly eschew a determinined/fixed/set trajectory for history); even at Marx's most simplified (in the Manifesto) he's explicit that the struggle can end in more than one way.

Some more books that may interest you:

James Scott Seeing Like a State. Really important to understand the critique of centralization that Graeber&Wengrow are (almost certainly) basing stuff on. I really love Scott's book because he repeatedly and explicitly positions himself as pro-planning, even pro-central planning if its done with more input from local knowledges. Scott also puts particular emphasis when he's criticizing socialists that "the capitalists do it to, but its more piecemeal and harder to track". I've also seen Scott's Against the Grain and The Art of Not Being Governed highly recommended, but haven't gotten around to reading them myself yet.

Natan Levy's The Dawn of Agriculture and the Earliest States in Genesis 1-11 looks at archaeological evidence in the Near East, the arguments from The Dawn of Everything, Seeing Like a State, and Against the Grain (among other works) and the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Its primary focus is on the formation and (in historical time) rapid rising and falling of early bronze age city-states. Levy takes class struggle and ecological issues as the basis of his investigation.

In general though, the broader histories tend to engage the least with economic stuff (especially broader histories of anything before like 1600). This is because the level of specific study needed to research the economics of e.g. the middle ages such broadness (all of europe! for a thousand years!) is hard.

For example, for this total history of the european middle ages 500-1500 AD you gotta learn latin+arabic+greek+hebrew and/or various local dialects, you gotta get funding to visit archives across Europe, you gotta read through the little surviving evidence of economic affairs, you gotta combine that with the political histories from the period, then you go to the next archive and its political histories say an entirely different thing and there's no corroboration of the economic evidence from Site A, but there is mention of a trade with site C (and on it goes). And you might think "well, there's a long time of historical scholarship to have read the archives and written the broad histories" (which is a valid question!) but unfortunately the archives are vast. And then once one's gotten all the paper sources sorted out the archaeological reports come in saying: "actually the castle at site E that is mentioned in source D is like half of the size described and made of dirt, not marble. And also despite a god-caused famine in source C, there's no indication of a decline in wheat pollen at this level of the soil, which indicates that harvest yields for wheat in site E were unchanged that year". There's lots already written that can be drawn on; but coverage of scholarship is uneven and there's lots of cracks. And even if one decides to abandon primary sources to just read modern secondary sources, you've gotta learn basically all the european languages, plus japanese and mandarin, because the most up to date research on e.g. Romanian history is usually in e.g. Romanian.

So it's a tough situation.

[-] Wertheimer@hexbear.net 11 points 5 months ago

Check out The Class Struggle in the Ancient Greek World, by G.E.M. de Ste. Croix. In his introduction he says that "in languages other than English the situation is much better," but there's still not enough. For anthropology he mentions "French economic anthropologists such as Maurice Godelier, Claude Meillassoux, Emmanuel Terray, Georges Dupre and Pierre-Philippe Rey".

[-] Wordplay@hexbear.net 4 points 5 months ago

The Class Struggle in the Ancient Greek World,

This looks excellent -- thank you!

[-] Wertheimer@hexbear.net 3 points 5 months ago

It's an all-timer. Croix's main sparring partner was Moses Finley, who wrote The Ancient Economy - not Marxist, and deserving of Croix's criticisms, but still a fascinating and important book that speaks to the difficulties of using modern economic analysis to examine older societies.

A subdiscipline I just recalled that might have a Marxist or two working in it - Big History. I haven't read any of examples but the impression I get is that it's kind of like Franco Moretti's "distant reading".

[-] Dolores@hexbear.net 7 points 5 months ago

My question is -- why?

it'd be obsolete. they're not making new plate tectonics, though we do learn more about them and reinterpret them from time to time. but every passing day is more history. imagine if you'd made your Grand Materialist History, finished it in '89, maybe it concluded somewhere between 75-85. nobody would read that book after the 90s force a reinterpretation of the Soviet Union and other socialist systems around the world.

[-] heartheartbreak@hexbear.net 4 points 5 months ago

I think it would be good to add that academia has a vested interest in discrediting marxism in any sphere of social science, ironic considering that marxism is in its essence the basis of all social science and so much academic work is about reinventing the methodology of marxism

[-] mayo_cider@hexbear.net 6 points 5 months ago

Other people have given plenty of recommendations, but I think no-one has approached the original question of "why?"

The amount of recommendations for multitude of different fields of research clearly shows that it's used and useful, but I'd imagine the results don't align with the views of the people facilitating the research

Science and the status quo have always been at odds, with the latter funding and relying on the support of the former, but for some weird reason science keeps disproving the status quo

[-] FreudianCafe@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago

Check out Michael Hudson's works, maybe he have something that interests you

[-] Wordplay@hexbear.net 4 points 5 months ago

Michael Hudson

I thought he only wrote about contemporary economics; I'm now looking into his book on debt forgiveness in the bronze age, which looks a bit 'over-specific' but nonetheless quite relevant to the era I'm asking about -- thank you for the recommendation!

[-] FreudianCafe@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 months ago

He gaveta some talks about it recently too, but theyre scattered in some yt chanels

[-] JoeByeThen@hexbear.net 6 points 5 months ago

It's not really Marxist but The Great Leveler: Violence and the History of Inequality from the Stone Age to the Twenty-First Century by Walter Scheidel may be of interest you.

[-] thethirdgracchi@hexbear.net 5 points 5 months ago

Look into more longue durée histories, they take a very materialist approach to historical development. Christopher Chitty builds on Arrighi to chart the intellectual development of homosexuality in the Mediterranean world in his wonderful book Sexual Hegemony. Arrighi himself is building on the work of Braudel; his histories of the Mediterranean world are second to none, and spend ages and ages on class relations and environment and how they creates historical events. Historians like Janet Abu-Lughod take this approach and cast in backwards deeper in time. Her Before European Hegemony uses this analysis to examine the Mongol world system.

From totally different direction, Domenico Losurdo's Liberalism: A Counter History examines the development of liberal philosophical thought through a materialist analysis of conditions at the time and how that developed their thought.

[-] Wordplay@hexbear.net 2 points 5 months ago

Excellent recommendations! Thank you!

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