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[-] remon@ani.social 5 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

In theory.

In practice it would be very hard and you would require very rigorous definitions of what constitutes hate speech that would have to carefully examined on a case to case basis. So basically you're building a small legal system.

That's impossible to do with volunteer moderators working for free.

[-] awesomesauce309@midwest.social 5 points 1 week ago

First you need to define free speech.

Let’s use Call of duty as an example. People love to think of MW2 lobbies as free speech. Male Gamers used their “free speech” to make any women feel unwelcome the minute they spoke. White Gamers listening for any signs of non-whiteness to ridicule. Was this free speech? Or just a group imposing its views on everyone who stood out on the platform? Activision just wants to sell as many copies as possible. So those Gamers get the boot, now those women and minorities feel the freedom to play and speak again.

If the speech is used as a battering ram to relentlessly berate, shame, silence, and enforce groupthink, then there is a chilling effect on the more truly free speech of others.

Using this logic the only way to have a truly free speech platform is to keep these mobs in check, and remove or limit their hate speech.

[-] atro_city@fedia.io 3 points 1 week ago

No. Absolute free speech means allowing people say whatever they like and that means anything. You can spam somebody with messages telling them to kill themselves. You can put a loudspeaker in front of somebody's house and play a message on loop telling them to kill themselves. You can openly call for somebody to kill another person and not get in trouble for enticing a murder. You can shout down anybody you like and tell them to shut up or threaten them, all you have to do is be louder and look like you have the means to kill them in order to intimidate. And that will all be fine because if someone tries to stop you from expressing your opinion, they will be infringing on your right to absolute free speech.

It does however create a paradox: if someone uses their free speech to infringe on somebody else's free speech, what can be done? You can't tell the person infringing to stop because that would infringe on their free speech. After all, they have a right to absolute free speech, don't they? So, if you say "your right to free speech ends where the right of somebody else's begins" then it's not absolute anymore.

It also opens a can of worms as to what counts as expressing free speech and what counts as suppressing it. Does blocking somebody on a platform infringe on their right? Does muting? If the rule is "right to speak, but no right to be heard", what counts as speech? Does typing and hitting send count as free speech? Well, I could give you an app with a textbox and a send button, disconnect you from the internet, and you could write everything you want, hit send and it never leaves your computer but you did express yourself, didn't you? Or maybe the sounds coming out of your mouth count as speech / expression ? Well, I could gag you, you can make sounds and that's speech, right?

So no. I don't believe absolute free speech can exist.

[-] AmidFuror@fedia.io 2 points 1 week ago

[Comment or thread deleted by moderator]

[-] gedaliyah@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago

No. Free speech tends to mean the most powerful group determines and enforces norms through aggression, harassment, etc. Speech has consequences, and some of those consequences include harms (threats, doxing, stalking, etc.)

Mastodon is one of the freest online speech platforms I've been a part of, and yet also has the most rigorously enforced code of conduct. More people are free to say more things, and feel confident that doing so does not put them in danger.

Before online platforms emerged, the ability to spread a message was dependent on your ability to support it financially and logistically. Anyone can publish a newspaper on any topic, but unless you have a racist millionaire backing you up, your message won't get very far (ahem, Deerborn Independent). Online publishing has been a haven for hate groups.

[-] hendrik@palaver.p3x.de 2 points 1 week ago

Well, if you allow everyone to say everything, the one yelling the loudest wins, and the more silent people don't get to speak freely. Also it's going to send hate, violence, doxxing, state secrets etc into the world. Harming other people and limiting their freedom. Or you limit free spech. So either way, there is no such thing as free speech. It contradicts itself.

[-] Kaboom@reddthat.com 1 points 1 week ago

No. Free speech includes all speech, even the unsavory kind. You can have it as an ideal and aim for it, but unless you allow for every spammer and scam artist, it's not free speech.

[-] AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago

Depends on whether you define a “free speech platform” as a platform that doesn’t impose its own constraints on speech, or a platform that enables speech without constraints. Because there are social pressures that also constrain speech, and hate speech can be a tool of those pressures.

[-] muntedcrocodile@lemm.ee 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Depends where u draw the line? Everyone draws the line somewhere different so some people are always going to be unhappy therefore its impossible.

The fediverse has completly sidestepped this issue by giving you the choice of what instance u want to engage with and thus can find one thats draws the line where u would like it drawn.

[-] surph_ninja@lemmy.world -1 points 1 week ago

No. “Hate speech” is an intentionally broad term designed to be abused and weaponized against unpopular speech.

A better approach would be more specific. No racist speech. No homophobic speech. No misogynistic speech. Etc. Leaving it open ended and subjective is setting up for failure.

[-] muntedcrocodile@lemm.ee 4 points 1 week ago

No. “Hate speech” is an intentionally broad term designed to be abused and weaponized against unpopular speech.

Ur absolutly right.

A better approach would be more specific. No racist speech. No homophobic speech. No misogynistic speech. Etc. Leaving it open ended and subjective is setting up for failure.

Unfortunatly that can be abused just as easily and an overly broad term.

Thus i would personaly draw the line at preventing speach that calls for or incites actionable physical violence.

[-] surph_ninja@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago

Makes sense to me.

[-] masterspace@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Completely and utterly false.

Every single western country outside of America has hate speech laws without issue.

A) they are not that open ended and subjective

B) the idea that laws can't be open ended, subjective, or governed through intent and spirit of the law, is only the case in the dumbass American legal system that has been intentionally ruined by simple minded Republicans, which insist on every edge case being explicitly covered by a law or legislation because they know that makes it impossible to effectively write laws or govern.

[-] remon@ani.social 1 points 1 week ago

Every single western country outside of America has hate speech laws without issue.

So does the US. Just not for ordinary people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threatening_government_officials_of_the_United_States

[-] masterspace@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Those would not be considered hate speech laws in other countries, just normal no-uttering-threats laws. Hate Speech laws typically protect against inciting hatred or violence against an identifiable group, actually uttering threats is typically a different broader law.

[-] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 week ago

You get crazy things in other countries though, like truth not being a defense for libel\slander.

[-] masterspace@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 week ago

In which countries is that the case?

[-] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 week ago
[-] masterspace@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 week ago

The UK is the weird outlier but there is still a defense of truth in the UK. The difference is that the person accusing you of defamation doesn't have to prove that you're wrong and you do have to prove that you're right.

[-] surph_ninja@lemmy.world -2 points 1 week ago

Love the timing making it so easy to disprove your argument. Just look at the flood of European countries abusing broad and ambiguous hate speech laws to crush dissent and crack down on criticism of Israel.

[-] masterspace@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 week ago

You're talking about the one instance of Germany ruling that a single controversial slogan was hate speech?

[-] surph_ninja@lemmy.world -1 points 1 week ago
[-] masterspace@lemmy.ca 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

These are mostly incidents of people publicly expressing support for Hamas, and being arrested for expressing support for a designated terrorist organization, and pretty much all confined to the UK, which has some of the weakest individual protections in the EU / western world.

They also don't have Nazi parades down their streets in 2024.

[-] surph_ninja@lemmy.world -3 points 1 week ago
[-] masterspace@lemmy.ca 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Ah, you're so terminally online that you brand anyone who mildly disagrees with you a 'bot'.

Tho fair point about the EDL.

[-] surph_ninja@lemmy.world -1 points 1 week ago

No, not at all.

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this post was submitted on 27 Nov 2024
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