this post was submitted on 24 Jul 2025
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Also what are the differences between the new economic policy and Deng's reform and opening up?

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[–] PKMKII@hexbear.net 34 points 1 week ago

I can’t really speak to Kruschev’s reforms.

With Deng, the key element was addressing underutilized production capacity. There’s a problem you get in planned economies where regional and local planners have an incentive to always meet their production quota. Which leads to, requesting more raw materials than they actually need and promising less than what the factories or factory are capable of. Hence the Soviet factories that would have raw materials and/or finished goods just piled up collecting dust.

The Deng reforms changed this to be, the regional and local directors had their quotas they had to hit for the planned economy’s needs. However, after that they were free to use their surplus productive capacity to produce goods to sell on the market. And, as others pointed out, this was coupled with opening up the Chinese economy to export to capitalist countries. This both resolved the underutilized production problem while bringing in trade dollars, all while retaining a most state-owned economy; as these corporations emerged out of the state production infrastructure, the state was a majority or major owner from the start.

[–] Enjoyer_of_Games@hexbear.net 33 points 1 week ago (1 children)
[–] LangleyDominos@hexbear.net 16 points 1 week ago

Finally, good fucking analysis.

[–] muad_dibber@lemmygrad.ml 19 points 1 week ago (2 children)
[–] Keld@hexbear.net 13 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

None of those answer OPs question. The question was of the difference between the NEP and Reform and Opening Up. And your post is about how China is still socialist. Unless your contention is that the NEP ended socialism in the USSR while reform and opening up did not end socialism in China, this is irrelevant.

Esit:I take that slightly back. One of those is a forum post contrasting Khruschchev and Deng, so that is actually is an attempt to answer their question

[–] muad_dibber@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 1 week ago

It's kind of hard to answer OP's question, because they didn't get into specifics. Usually when the question is comparing Kruschev and Deng, the implication is that both were attempts at dismantling or disempowering their given socialist owned systems, and denouncing past leaders like Stalin or Mao, which nearly all the articles get into above w/ respect to China, and why that's not the case.

As clearly stated in Fallaci's interview with Deng:

Fallaci: To conclude this line of questioning: I can’t imagine that, at the next Congress of the Communist Party of China, we will see a repeat of the events of the twentieth Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, when Khrushchev denounced Stalin. Or am I mistaken?

Deng: You are not mistaken. At the Congress we will objectively evaluate the merits and the mistakes that characterized the life of Chairman Mao; we will celebrate his merits and recognize that they are of primary importance; and we will admit his mistakes, recognizing that they are of secondary importance. By making public the mistakes that Chairman Mao committed in recent years, we will adopt a realistic attitude. But we will certainly continue to follow Mao Zedong Thought — or, rather, all that which constituted the just part of his life. And, no, it is not only his portrait that remains in Tiananmen Square but also the memory of the man who brought us to victory and who, in essence, founded a country. And this is no small feat. And I’ll repeat: the Communist Party of China and the people of China will always look to him like a symbol — a very precious treasure. Write this down: we will never do to Mao Zedong what Khrushchev did to Stalin at the twentieth Congress of the CPSU.

[–] HexReplyBot@hexbear.net 2 points 1 week ago

I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:

[–] Keld@hexbear.net 15 points 1 week ago (1 children)

what are the differences between the new economic policy and Deng's reform and opening up?

The NEP was always meant and assumed to be a very temporary stop gap by anyone who wasn't named Bukharin. Deng was embarking on a generational project. The bolsheviks needed a couple of factories uo and running, training for their engineerss and access to technology and resources to rebuild and get them ready to transition to a planned economy. Deng wasn't going to zag on the zig, this was a much more elaborate and planned approach to reforming the economy.

Also both of them embraced the support of anticommunist and capitalist states to build their economy, but Lenin and the Bolsheviks never accepted themselves engaging in repression of communist movements. This resulted in the foreign partnerships of the NEP breaking down and becoming ineffective, while China steadily benefitted from being the premier trading partner of many capitalist countries.

As with regards to Khruschchev. The thing that matters here is that the CPC is still around and in power and there is no such thing as the soviet union, anything else is sophistry. The specific levels of mean words uttered about the previous leader is an irrelevant metric, whether liberalised corn growing or dairy farming is the superior plan is pointless. What matters is that the Soviet Union fell

[–] purpleworm@hexbear.net 12 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I think it's reductive to say that Khrushchev's coup against the establishment and his anti-cult of personality, which was the center of his characterization of his political project early on, means literally nothing or was just "mean words." Beria was no killed in a secret trial by mean words (or perhaps he was, we can't say for sure!). Rhetoric does not define the living or dying of a country, but it can be a factor when something that is tremendously important to the culture of a country is either viciously undone or slyly maintained.

Also, you phrase things as though you're making a hard-nosed assessment, but you're still isolating variables without any interest in, for example, the starting points of the respective countries, which I think is kind of important.

[–] Keld@hexbear.net 7 points 1 week ago (1 children)

None of what I say is a sober hard-nosed assessment. I am stating my opinions which are rooted in my own biases and understanding of facts, which include being certifiably mad about the CPCs foreign policy from 1960 until now.

But when I speak of mean words, I speak of the contrast between Dengs repudiation of the cultural revolution with Khruschchev's secret speech, an often used example of how Khruschchev is bad and Deng is not.

Beria was no killed in a secret trial by mean words

I will shed no tears for Beria. Everyone from Molotov to Malenkov agreed to.kill the bastard. Unless your contention is that he was the only good member of the politburo and every single accusation and every single testimony about his plans are lies, he clearly made his own bed.

[–] purpleworm@hexbear.net 8 points 1 week ago

None of what I say is a sober hard-nosed assessment. I am stating my opinions which are rooted in my own biases and understanding of facts, which include being certifiably mad about the CPCs foreign policy from 1960 until now.

I certainly despise their foreign policy from late Mao on for some time afterward, though I don't think there's any comparing then and now, as much as some people tend to make it out that way. If you want to call them social imperialists for buying copper from Zimbabwe and weapons from Israel, fine, but that's not the same as backing Pol Pot and invading Vietnam.

I will shed no tears for Beria. Everyone from Molotov to Malenkov agreed to.kill the bastard. Unless your contention is that he was the only good member of the politburo and every single accusation and every single testimony about his plans are lies, he clearly made his own bed.

I'm not asking you to cry for Beria, I make no claim that he was a good guy*. I am simply citing his killing as part of the extreme action that Krushchev took to destroy the existing establishment. I mean, are we seriously going to say that all the people Stalin purged were guilty of all that they were charged with? I think that would be silly, but even they had open trials, unlike Beria. Would we not be forced to say, therefore, that the same confounding factors apply and perhaps even more? Because he was given a very similar range of charges.

*I elaborated on this point at first, but perhaps that's not needed.

[–] Cowbee@hexbear.net 13 points 1 week ago

Regarding Khrushchev vs. Deng, I wrote this extremely brief summary. Regarding the NEP and Reform and Opening Up, the biggest differences are time scale, and the level of integration with the global economy.

[–] KobaCumTribute@hexbear.net 10 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Edit: I'm tired and misread the question to be about Gorbachev vs Deng.

There are several major things that stand out: Deng's reforms were a tradeoff of accepting the bad of austerity and markets in exchange for real material concessions and access to resources and industrial capital, whereas Gorbachev just kind of shattered the central planning apparatus and began liquidating state assets, and retreated geopolitically as well, in exchange for literally nothing except more agitation and hostility from the US. Deng's bloc also did not castigate and slander past leaders of the CPC the way Gorbachev's liberals did to the past leaders of the CPSU, nor did they systematically dismantle the CPC and isolate regional branches from one another the way the CPSU was undermined. The CPC under Deng did not simply roll over and passively accept insurgencies like the CPSU did at the end, and instead both cracked down on violent agitators and sought to continue making some concessions to the broader public sentiment. China's liberalizing reforms were also careful and piecemeal, getting something out of every step and preventing it from entirely upending the existing logistics system and industrial base, whereas like I mentioned in the beginning Gorbachev just kind of gutted the central planning system, destroyed the Soviet logistics system, and basically just did the liberal prayer of "the market will make it better, praise the holy line which can only ever go up!" and it did not work because of course it doesn't work.

Some of that is that Deng's bloc were cynical and decided to retreat from ideological goals for material strategic gains, and some of it is that the US at that point was happy to try to split off China and desperately needed China as a market both to buy skilled labor from and sell new industrial capital in a volume that American factories didn't want to buy which made those strategic gains possible for China. Some of it is that Gorbachev was a dipshit who was apparently quite competent and well liked in a support role, but who had no good ideas of his own and on inheriting a mandate of reform and modernization found himself leaning on anticommunist extremists and elevating them into positions of power where they could censor communists and run anticommunist propaganda and just generally sabotage everything, and some of it is that the USSR was never going to get the sort of material concessions that China did because Reagan was even more of a fanatic extremist than Nixon and where China had material things to offer the US (and splitting off China into a US-leaning neutral state was a geopolitical goal), the USSR had nothing to offer the US except its own dissolution, collapse, and looting which is what wound up happening.

[–] Keld@hexbear.net 9 points 1 week ago (1 children)

She's not asking about Gorbachev. They're asking about corn-man-khrush and the NEP.

[–] KobaCumTribute@hexbear.net 9 points 1 week ago

Whoops. In my defense, the sun is coming up and I'm tired enough I had to go back and edit it like three times because I kept realizing I'd left out words, so I just uh didn't read good there.

I had an answer ready to go for "why did Gorbachev and Deng's respective reforms turn out different", but I have a much less clear understanding of the minutia of Khrushchev's policies apart from like the tractor privatization stuff that didn't work out too good, the push to increase beef production by trying to grow more cattle feed that didn't do so well in that climate, and the way the tacit acceptance of the "second economy" set the stage for a lot of stagnation, graft, and corruption that ultimately fed into the liberal bloc that used Gorbachev to seize power and loot everything.

[–] Candidate@hexbear.net 4 points 1 week ago

AFAIR, China's current policy is to build capitalism until it's capable of creating communism. That's not something Kruschev did, or was even interested in.

[–] anarchoilluminati@hexbear.net 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Oh, I also asked this question in a comment sometime ago! Nice.

Oh, damn, had totally missed the struggle session when I had commented. So much good material to read!