In Capitalist countries authority is used to oppress the masses and protect exploitation, in Socialist countries it is used to oppress the Capitalists (who don't just disappear the second the revolution succeeds), the CIA invented "Authoritarian" as a way of demonizing Socialist countries by drawing attention to how it suppresses the class enemy of the working class rather then who is suppressed and for who's benefit. A State is needed for as long as class antagonism exists, which itself will exist as long as class itself exists, which itself will exist so long as the material conditions for classes exist, which will exist until global communism is achieved. Until then, a State is needed to protect the success of the revolution, which is "Authoritarian", along with your brain telling your body to get up in the morning, the bullet from a gun used against fascists who do the same to you, or even missiles used to deter the U.S. from bombing the shit out of you which they have done before and would do again. TL:DR "Authoritarianism" isn't a thing.
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You're echoing ideas from Engels' On Authority essay, which is famously known for showing a complete lack of understanding for what authority actually means. With all respect, the ML space has a dismissive attitude towards authority that borders on straight up denial.
which is famously known for showing a complete lack of understanding for what authority actually means.
I imagine this is the point where you start defining authority in a completely abstract and arbitrary way, rather than the most simple, common-sense one intelligible to every worker already.
Engels is already one step ahead of you:
But the necessity of authority, and of imperious authority at that, will nowhere be found more evident than on board a ship on the high seas. There, in time of danger, the lives of all depend on the instantaneous and absolute obedience of all to the will of one.
When I submitted arguments like these to the most rabid anti-authoritarians, the only answer they were able to give me was the following: Yes, that's true, but there it is not the case of authority which we confer on our delegates, but of a commission entrusted! These gentlemen think that when they have changed the names of things they have changed the things themselves. This is how these profound thinkers mock at the whole world.
No I think I agree with what any average worker would understand as authority. And I think any sane anti-authoritarian would agree with Engels that there are contexts where it is important to have a single leader, such as the ship example. The difference is, does the crew agree collectively to pick such a leader, or is the leader forced upon them by threat of violence? What if they want a different leader, are they able to choose a new one? If they disobey a ludicrous order from a corrupt captain, will they be systematically persecuted? These aren't crazy questions to consider IMO, but Engels wants to handwave the entire concept.
does the crew agree collectively to pick such a leader, or is the leader forced upon them by threat of violence?
That's related to, but not fundamental to the definition of authority, whose core point is enforcement via class violence (IE either capitalist authority or proletarian authority). You can have a completely democratic selection process, and the enforcement of that decision is still "authoritarian", unless you want to allow everyone to break the decisions that are reached.
Marxists already have this collective democratic process, its called democratic centralism, which takes many different forms depending on the situation, but is essentially "diversity in discussion, unity in action". One of the first practictioners of it was Mao, who impressed that individual red army units during the Chinese civil war should select their own officers.
Once decisions are selected, they are binding upon the members. I can tell you from experience that "anti-authoritarian" types consider even democratic rulings "oppressive", and that they feel free to break them since that imposes on their individual freedom.
What if they want a different leader, are they able to choose a new one?
That also is related to, but not fundamental, to the question of authority. Recall exists(ed) not only in communist countries, but even in liberal dictatorships, where recall does absolutely nothing to hinder the authority of the capitalist class.
If anti-authoritarianism to you (like many anarchists) means the freedom to disobey (even democratic rulings), then its no wonder that every single historical anarchist attempt has lasted less long than it took most of us to get through highschool.
The only way for a revolution to survive is for proletarian authority to be even more organized and more disciplined than its capitalist opponents.
These things are central to what I consider authority. You may have a different definition but then I guess we're discussing different things. "Proletarian authority" makes zero sense in the vocabulary of anarchism, it only works with Engels' definition that conflates authority with power. But I don't think arguing about the meaning of words is a good pastime.
It sounds like you are in favor of Mao letting people choose their own generals rather than being appointed centrally. Why? Are you some sort of anti-authoritarian?
These things are central to what I consider authority.
That's fine if you want to define it differently according to your own standards, and think that if proletarians make laws and rules, being forced to obey them isn't authoritarian (although you would be going against most of your anarchist comrades with that definition, who consider any affront to personal liberty, "authoritarian").
Why? Are you some sort of anti-authoritarian?
Mao and every other ML are defining authority in the same way; all consider the dictatorship of the proletariat to be equivalent to working-class democracy, and democratic centralizsm. "Anti-authoritarians" staunchly oppose Mao and the DOTP, so you'd be in a tiny minority of anarchists if you actually support the CPC.
Hm I thought we were going somewhere. Whether or not I support Mao is besides the point. The point is that we both seem to think it's good that in that system, people could choose their own generals. Not to mention you've poured your heart and soul into developing an incredible federated software that defies central control. I know why I like that, but I'm confused as to why you would.
I'm not some pure-blooded anarchist. I don't strictly adhere to one ideology. I don't think anyone should.
Not to mention you’ve poured your heart and soul into developing an incredible federated software that defies central control. I know why I like that, but I’m confused as to why you would.
I don't see this, or any federated service as anti-authoritarian. I see it as increasing the authority and power of normal people at the expense of corporate / capitalist authority. We must own our own tools, media, news, and communications platforms, and use the power and authority these tools give us to moderate and curate content according to what we think is appropriate, rather than pushing pro-capitalist and western-supremacist narratives that inundate the english-speaking media landscape.
Engels’ On Authority essay, which is famously known for showing a complete lack of understanding for what authority actually means

Care to expand? Maybe give a more accurate definition?
No need to explain a fact that's famously known. Turn on the TV and everyone will be talking about Engels misunderstanding authority. Go walk in the park and you'll overhear people talking about Engels misunderstanding authority.
Fair point lol.
Sure. Criticisms of authority typically refer to systemic authority and power structures. It's not just the ability to compel somebody else at any given time. It's about contrasting different forms of social organization. Engles kinda tries to handwave the entire concept. But surely everyone can tell the difference between, say, a kingdom, and collective decisionmaking. To handwave the entire concept of authority, to me, is just an unwillingness to formulate a serious answer. It's denial.
I will say that most capitalists present some highly hypocritical arguments for what they call authoritarianism. I should sooner listen to the anarchist arguments, which also criticize the inherent authoritarianism in capitalism. One doesn't even need to be an anarchist to engage with that.
Authority, in the sense in which the word is used here, means: the imposition of the will of another upon ours; on the other hand, authority presupposes subordination. Now, since these two words sound bad, and the relationship which they represent is disagreeable to the subordinated party, the question is to ascertain whether there is any way of dispensing with it, whether — given the conditions of present-day society — we could not create another social system, in which this authority would be given no scope any longer, and would consequently have to disappear.
Sounds like Engels does have a good grasp
Ah ok this makes it clear it is not Engels who has a misunderstanding but you.
But surely everyone can tell the difference between, say, a kingdom, and collective decisionmaking.
Obviously but the difference is not that of authority but of form. The collective decision will be just as authoritarian on the minority who disagree as the kingdom is to those not integrated into the power structure.
should sooner listen to the anarchist arguments, which also criticize the inherent authoritarianism in capitalism. One doesn’t even need to be an anarchist to engage with that.
The anarchist definition of hierarchy (and thus authority) constantly shifts to accommodate whatever hierarchy anarchists currently want to defend as “not really hierarchy” or “justified authority” or “expertise” or “coordination.” Parent and child, doctor and patient, teacher and student, elected militia command, workplace coordination, revolutionary defense, public health measures, collective discipline: suddenly these are not hierarchy, because even anarchists know society cannot function without structured authority.
The collective decision will be just as authoritarian on the minority who disagree as the kingdom is to those not integrated into the power structure.
Please rethink this.
For one, even just the outcome of any kind of collective decisionmaking process will generally be one that doesn't oppress the masses, or at least not most of them. Whereas the king might decide at his own whim that he shall receive everybody's firstborn baby to eat.
More importantly, there's also enforcement. If we are comparing the kingdom to, say, a modern nation state with a police force, then yes, the enforcement can be authoritarian in either case. But you know as well as I that anarchists don't advocate for electoral nation states precisely because they create an oppressive political class, as well as a capitalist class in the case of capitalism.
The anarchist definition of hierarchy (and thus authority) constantly shifts
I would also argue that MLs tend to shift the definition of authority to something completely meaningless (Engels' definition) whenever criticized by anti-authoritarians.
You are still confusing two different questions: whether authority exists, and whether authority serves oppression or liberation.
Authority does not stop being authority because it is used for a good end. A shovel used to dig irrigation channels and a shovel used to murder someone are still both shovels. The moral and political content changes, but the object itself does not.
So when I say collective decision-making can be authoritarian toward the minority who disagree, I am not saying it is politically equivalent to a kingdom. Obviously a peasant commune, a workers’ council, or a revolutionary party has different class content from a monarchy. The difference is in form, class basis, and whose interests are being served. But if a collective decision is binding, and if the minority must obey it, then authority exists.
That is precisely Engels’ point. He is not claiming that all authority is identical, harmless, or above criticism. He is arguing that anti-authoritarians often pretend they have abolished authority when they have only renamed it.
The real distinction is not “authority versus no authority.” The real distinction is authority in whose hands, serving which class, under what material conditions, and for what purpose.
A kingdom concentrates authority in a dynastic ruling class. A revolutionary collective uses authority against exploiters, saboteurs, invaders, landlords, capitalists, and sometimes against backward or individualist tendencies among the people themselves. These are not the same political phenomenon, but both involve the social relation that is authority.
A village deciding collectively to redistribute land is exercising authority over landlords. Workers seizing and planning production are exercising authority over capital. A revolutionary army maintaining discipline is exercising authority over its own members. Public health measures, food distribution, irrigation, education, defense, and production all require binding decisions. Calling this “coordination” instead of authority does not change the relation.
Also the western anarchist idea of a “political class” or “administrative class” is a delusion that does away with the basis of what constitutes a class. A class is not simply “people who make administrative decisions.” A class is rooted in relation to the means of production: ownership or non-ownership, control over production, and the ability to privately appropriate surplus. A landlord, capitalist, slave-owner, or imperialist bourgeoisie is a class in that sense. A delegate, cadre, militia commander, village official, or administrator is not automatically a class just because they exercise authority.
Can administrators become separated from the masses? Yes. Can bureaucracy become a real danger? Yes. Can a socialist state degenerate and restore capitalism? Yes. But this does not mean administrators or politicians constitute a separate class unto themselves. It means that administrative and political positions can be captured by, subordinated to, or made to serve other class lines. The class character of these positions is determined by the social relations they reproduce: whose rule they enforce, whose interests they serve, and whether they help maintain or transform the existing relations of production. In a proletarian state, administrative authority is supposed to serve proletarian rule; under capitalism, it serves bourgeois rule. The position itself is not a class. “Political class” is just a vague moral category for “people with authority I dislike,” avoiding the real analysis of what class power they express, what function they perform, and what social relations they defend.
MLs do not make authority meaningless. We simply do not treat the word itself as something to fear or evade. Authority remains authority whether it is reactionary or liberatory; what changes is its class content, purpose, and historical function. It is a mistake is to pretend that authority disappears once it is exercised collectively, democratically, or in service of emancipation. It does not. It is still authority, but authority directed toward a different end and grounded in different social relations. MLs do not feel the need to constantly rename liberatory authority as “coordination,” “delegation,” or “justified force” in order to make it acceptable.
Marxists are more blunt: authority means the ability to impose a decision, compel action, enforce discipline, or subordinate one will to another in definite social relations. That can be oppressive or liberatory depending on class content and historical role.
A landlord’s authority over peasants is oppressive. Peasants’ authority over landlords during land reform is liberatory. A capitalist’s authority in the factory is exploitation. Workers’ authority over production is emancipation. Imperialist authority over oppressed nations is reactionary. Revolutionary authority against imperialism is necessary.
"Uhh ur wrong, Engels is wrong, and it's so obvious that I don't need to point out how."
Behold, liberal analysis. "Nuh uh."
I dont get what you are saying, can you expand?
Another banger from jankforlife, downvoted by those that hate the truth. Keep licking those capitalist boots, losers. The real left is socialist and it will win, it's scientific.
One can be socialist and critical of dynastic states
One can lick boots and pretend to be a revolutionary lol
Well he Is right that the secretary generals of a nation cant be based on dynasty.
I dont belive i "authoritarianisn" but really, its a Vanguard party so they have democratic centralism of im not wrong. How much Does It take to elect a different one.
And they are right, as many others marxists Say, we dont belive CIA propaganda but we can still be critical on proven facts and not being Is Just stupid
Indeed. But seriously, how does passing on leadership to their child for two generations in a row not give cause to super grave concern for all socialists?
Because we're too busy worrying about the US trying to starve Korean people. Material realities dominate superstructural minutiae.