Imagine if valve put it's money into making components like ram and storage just because the guys doing it already are hurting gamers
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Making RAM requires billions of dollars in investment. That’s why there’s so few manufacturers worldwide. I highly doubt that Valve could afford it.
It's unlikely for sure but not impossible as we have no idea what they actually haul in. They have been said to be worth 20-40 billion but they may be worth much more unbeknownst to us.
I also highly doubt it and said as much in a different comment
It's pretty accurate, AI and every other nonsensical idea in the IT world is making everything worse because all the big bosses want to see AI take off.
Baby Boomers destroyed the world and hated the Internet Gen X and the very oldest of millennials want to see AI take over.. They're now aware that AI will take their jobs too.
Gen Z and younger millennials are using AI daily.
I am 37 years old, I work in IT support.. I know now to Google things, I know how to talk to people.. So I don't need AI.
Yes yes I'm very very aware how great AI is for science and medicine.. I'm not in either of those fields so I don't need AI.
If capitalism works, we'll start to see competitors enter the market and prices would go down.
If capitalism worked.
CXMT is our best bet. But it takes time to ramp up production. Some article I saw said they’re building things at a quicker pace than other manufacturers typically do which is a good sign.
But when demand slumps back down then now you’re stuck with all this manufacturing capacity that’s not useful anymore. So you have to balance dealing with short term spikes vs long term demand.
The problem is it's not quite so easy.
If this was making things like cars or toilet paper, where the design and manufacturing methods are well understood, that's exactly what would happen.
Making computer chips was well understood. You take a slice of single-crystal silicon, dope its surface with something, use a photo mask and a light to etch off the doping where you don't want it. Repeat that process a few dozen or a few hundred times to etch transistors into the silicon, then slice it up into chips and package them.
Machines that do this are readily available.
The problem is, we made those transistors smaller. And smaller. And smaller. And smaller. And smaller.
Then we ran into problems like how to etch features on the silicon that are smaller than the wavelength of light. And we found solutions to that. And so we made the transistors smaller. And smaller. And smaller.
So now to create a current-gen computer chip, you need a process called EUV- Extreme Ultra Violet. Red light has a longer wavelength than blue light, so when you want smaller wavelength to etch smaller features into the chip you eventually go from red to blue to ultraviolet and eventually to extreme ultraviolet. Problem THERE is there's no EUV bulbs available, and if there were they'd be useless because atmospheric air absorbs EUV, and even if you do it in a vacuum glass absorbs EUV too so lenses don't work. So you can only manipulate this light with mirrors, which have to be ground to an absolutely insane level of precision.
The resulting machine is quite impressive. You have a giant cavity kept in perfect vacuum. In one side you have an EUV source- that's a little machine that dispenses a tiny 3-micron droplet of molten tin. As the droplet falls it's hit by a laser to blast it into a pancake-like shape, then by another much bigger laser that vaporizes it. In the process of vaporizing it releases EUV light. So by blasting 50,000 droplets per second, you have a mostly continuous EUV light source. This light is reflected by shaped mirrors carved into the surfaces of the vacuum chamber that reflect and focus the EUV into a linear beam. Below that (also in vacuum) you have the mask and the silicon wafer, and by moving them back and forth under the beam you etch features 'smaller than light' into the chip.
The result is a chip with current pathways less than 100 silicon atoms wide. And if you want to make current-gen computer memory, that's the only way we've got to build it.
EUV machines are pretty much only made by one company, ASML. They're the size of a double decker bus, they cost a fortune ($200MM+), and they're in insanely high demand. Like I've heard of a guy getting hired by a company for over million a year simply because he's friends with a purchasing manager at ASML and might be able to get the company that hired him a build slot.
And it's not just buy the machine and hit 'start', there's a ton of other stuff involved. You need machines to make the photo masks, you need an ultra-clean cleanroom, you need a robotic facility where cassettes of wafers can be whisked from machine to machine with no exposure to even clean room air. And this is all highly specialized stuff, you don't just call 1800-fab-4you and place an order.
Bottom line- even for a company that already has experience in current-gen chipmaking, setting up a fab like this costs $15-20 billion. And it isn't just 'sign a check and come back tomorrow', the process of building a fab from the project being approved to the first wafer coming off the line is 2-3 years minimum.
Now here's the bigger problem- semiconductors are always a cyclical market, or at least always have been. Demand (and thus prices) goes up, demand/prices come down. So if you invest $20 billion when prices are high, then in 2-3 years when the cycle is at its low nobody's gonna be buying your output. And of course, adding more chips to the market will affect market prices (supply and demand). So companies that are building fabs have to look 5-10 years ahead to determine if they'll get ROI on a fab before they build.
And that brings us to the next issue- with AI, we're in uncharted territory. The computing market has been pretty well understood since the early 90s. There's demand for PCs and laptops and servers and gadgets, and it goes up and down and new products come out that changes the mix of what's ordered, but the cycle more or less continues. Up and down.
Then AI happens. And suddenly we have near-instant, unheard-of levels of demand. And it's all for current-gen top-shelf stuff- HBM (high bandwidth memory) and GPUs and specialty silicon like NPUs.
Now there are more fabs being built. But it's also starting to be better understood that AI is a bubble, which almost certainly will pop. So if you're a DRAM maker and you spend $40 billion building a fleet of new fabs and then the bubble pops, you're gonna be fucked. That's why you don't see everybody+dog diving into the DRAM market face first.
All true but it also assumes valve isn't thinking post gaben
Building a fab now and getting the experience and expertise it needs to build next gen, such as abandoning silicon like the one article I saw said might be the direction things go in might be in valves orbit. Froml all accounts valve is highly profitable and could potentially weather the storm of upfront capital and growing/learning pains.
Also as I understand it valve doesn't hire developers that don't have a minimum of 15 years in industry related employment so if valve maintains its current hiring standards (and I'm not completely wrong or it has already changed), they VERY easily could poach all the experience they would need to since they would have the time. Might be a very exciting and enthralling opportunity to work for a gamer/pc focused fab.
I mean I doubt it but if they were thinking long term it would given them a comfortable time frame to do it in.
If turns out they already have the capital to self finance it all that wouldn't entirely surprise me they could.
That's probably the best comment Ive read so far on all of Lemmy, thanks!
Most welcome :)
Just to add, since I didn’t see you mention it: even when you build a fab from scratch and know what to fabricate you need to find and hire people with the “know-how” on how to set the processes up.
This was a very interesting read, thank you!
Most welcome :)
Would DDR4 or DDR3 be easier to produce?
In some ways yes. Older designs on older nodes use older equipment- less precise, easier to build. There's actually a lot of PC builders who are building machines on DDR4 mainboards because the memory is more affordable. A couple of DDR4 mainboards have been 'un-discontinued' as a result.
For a desktop or laptop PC, the difference of DDR4 to DDR5 often doesn't make a huge difference. So you get a last-gen chipset and RAM and you get a decent machine without paying $thousands extra.
Even if it worked it wouldn't. Neoliberals and free-market advocates will tell you that competitors would rise up if there were no regulations.
But some industries (like silicon and microchips and other advanced tech) are just impossible to breakthrough without years or decades of setting up and operating without profit vs current players.
And those current players, given no market regulations, will still use their money to do anything possible to stifle upcoming competitors or buy them out.
The dream of capitalism was born pre industrial age, under models of "apples sold at the farmers' market".
The reality is we have advanced a lot and need mixed economies to keep things fair for most people.
I'm sorry, but capitalism didn't really exist up until industrialism. Before then, it was mainly feudalism.
Googling is easy. We had mostly capitalism before, the industrial evolution just pumped it even more.
Plus the IE wasn't a single date but a period. And my point is that previously held ideas of how markets work affected People's hopes of what competition in a capitalist market would be like.
...in spite of how the industrial evolution created industries (lol) and markets so vast that they became larger than any human or any family trade ever was, intergenerational behemoths that are simply too resistant to competition because of how it takes literally multiple lifetimes to reach their level without already being a competitor.
At this p;oint if I go to a site and they have an "AI Chat Assistant!" pop up I send them a "support" message telling them that I will not be purchasing from people who contributes to the bubble that is driving up costs for components.
I just did that for an MP3 player, why the everloving frak they need an AI assistant to give me a "compare" feature that's been on commercial sites for decades...
A bit off topic, but what sort of mp3 player? It crossed my mind a few times that I should get one again.
At what point do we start making the factories ourselves? No really if ddr3 is significantly going up would it make sence for all these smaller companies to pool thier resources and start fabbing thier own chips?
unfortunately chip foundries take years to set up (just filtering the air alone takes months), so it's not really a solution - although china is attempting to do exactly this.
"It's hard work and it takes too long. China is trying to do it "
2 years later and after China has done it, "why are the chinese taking the lead on all of this? we should be doing things more like China."
Sorry, I was perhaps unclear - China is and has been setting up chip foundaries regardless of the global memory prices, simply to have domestic production of those components. Production of memory modules during this period of AI ratfucking is just a happy bonus.
Nobody (aside from China, for purely geopolitical reasons) really wants to invest billions of dollars in a multiple years long process that could be instantly undermined by the popping of the AI bubble.
This level of demand is not sustainable, and the big tech companies know it.
Making RAM at home:
That is so awesome! NGL, some of that equipment looks more sophisticated than what I use in my university's semiconductor lab. But the spin coater with the pot lid cracks me up a bit.