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'we can't afford to lose voters who support israel's war crimes'
(midwest.social)
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Who said anything about voting for a republican?
Context clues my guy, when my feed is flooded with Genocide Joe memes because it's an election year and various interests are trying to dissuade people from voting so Republicans take power, it's pretty easy to tell what this meme is doing.
You think genocide Joe memes are to dissuade Republicans from voting for Joe Biden? You think someone concerned about genocide would vote for Trump for Biden? What?
It's about voter disillusionment. Make a big show about Joe Biden sending weapons to Israel equating that action to being the mastermind behind the Israel's genocidal campaign and distracting from the fact that trump will literally open the floodgates of our weapons stockpile to Israel accelerating tje genocide and get people who begrudgingly vote for biden because he's the less awful choice to reconsider voting at all.
Do you think maybe this is something beyond just trying to get people to vote for Trump? Maybe people just really hate genocide and don't like the idea of voting or supporting someone who is okay with it?
Think maybe there are third party options?
Do you think maybe the electoral college and the stupid voting situation in this country has made it so many people have an opportunity to vote third party while their state still goes to Biden??
Listen all I'm trying to say is people have a ton of different reasons to call out Joe for his support of genocide. You immediately defending it makes you and the things you stand for look bad because you're defending genocide. Just saying
Calculating whether you can safely throw your vote away to a third party candidate is a next level strategy.
Yes, thank you! If you were to go through my comment history, you'll see me arguing for voting for third parties in non-swing States. I also cite that if any of those third parties gets 5% in the vote, they get public funding in the next round as well as a chance to actually contend.
My vote is probably going to end up going for Claudia de La Cruz or Dr. Cornell West. Because I live in a hard blue state that will not change.
Another comment cuz I want to elaborate the problem is the Dems are controlled opposition. They pretend to be leftist and say they want to do the right thing but they never do. They're always a couple votes short or just somebody turned on them or something always goes wrong. Obamacare was even a right-wing idea that came out of the heritage foundation. That's why it sucks.
So solution we need an actual left-wing party. How do we do that without majorly screwing ourselves?
The only way I can think of outside of a violent revolution is slowly gaining control of a third party election after election to the point where it's a viable contender and can win.
The only alternatives are violent revolution and continuing to pick the lesser of two evils and continuing to have the most important election of our lifetime so far every election. We need to do better. We need to organize.
Being complacent with where we are, especially with enabling genocide will only put us on the chopping block eventually.
I'm defending genocide by pointing out Republicans will accelerate the genocide if they win by people deciding not to vote?
Yes.
If anytime someone brings up how the current political establishment are aiding and abetting genocide and that's a bad thing and you immediately start defending them. You are defending genocide. 🤷
That's why I asked who said anything about voting for Trump. I'd shoot myself in the head before I did that. You know when I'm not going to do pretend like genocide Joe's not a f****** genocide enabler. Cuz I don't defend genocide or people who help commit them. You should try it real easy.
Read what I'm saying, this kind of messaging not about convincing people to vote for trump, it's about convincing people not to vote at all. Which always helps Republicans, and if they win, will 1000% accelerate the ongoing genocide. Doing nothing lets evil men get away with anything. And right now, for me, it's about damage minimization and maintaining pressure to reverse the policy.
So no I'm not endorsing genocide by saying that trump getting into office will absolutely make the situation worse.
I hear you. I'm going to try to be clearer
What I'm trying to point out to you is that you and many other people I see here as soon as anyone points out that the Democrats are backing a genocide and something needs to be done about it. Act like those people, including myself are supporting Trump or other Republicans.
All I'm trying to say to you is there are other strategies available and other reasons someone would not want to vote for Biden. Even in a way you might deem safe.
As soon as a criticism of Biden is made and there is a suggestion that something can be done about it, It is shot down by saying Trump would do it worse. This sentiment is used to stop people who want to stop the genocide. That's why I'm calling it defending genocide.
We all know Trump would do it worse. Do not vote for Trump. Or any Republican they all suck. The thing I'm trying to get through is most of the Democrats suck too. If we continue to vote for Biden, another Dems, we're going to get the same shit.
By instantly countering with someone who wants to do better by saying well, you're actually going to do worse. You were defending the status quo and part of the status quo is genocide.
Do you get what I'm saying?
I also see where you're coming from. And I do not want to support a genocide, but strictly in terms of electoral politics, and putting all other possible forms of civic engagement aside, we should not be dissuaded people from voting for the least shitty viable option.
People have been trying to make voting third party a thing for decades, and the last time a major political party fell was when the Progressive Republicans took to the nation stage in the mid 1800s and replaced the Whig party when the Northern Whigs and Southern Whigs split over the issue of slavery.
Abstaining from voting does not absolve you of the decisions of our government because whether you voted or not, you still pay taxes that are used to send bombs to a genocidal nation.
I do not like the current genocide, but I have no illusions that abstaining from voting is a good idea and there is no way that just rolling over and letting trump win will do anything other than accelerate and exacerbate the ongoing genocide.
If anyone should be rhetorically dissuaded from voting start targeting Republicans instead because scolding anyone voting for the least shit option in regards to the genocide is a shit strategy for stopping a genocide.
Going to go back to voice to text and cursing like a sailor cuz that's what I'm used to. But I appreciate the sentiment and the agreeable conversation. 🤝
To be clear. I've never said not voting is a good choice. I never want to hear non voters complain because their voice doesn't matter cuz they don't use their vote f*** them.
What I am saying is calling out Biden for enabling genocide is valid and shouldn't be instantly shot down and voting for third party is cool in non-swing States.
Yeah I'm not saying anybody should roll over and roll that Trump win. I literally rather shoot myself. A vote for Trump is probably the worst thing you could do. I vote for the greens or the socialists or Cornell West on the other hand. It does some good. Not enough. Good to get us to where we need to be in this election but we can start the momentum now.
I agree with the sentiment and yes we do need to push biden to stop providing weapons to a genocidal state however this sort of purity shaming of voters isn't going to convince anyone to vote against trump. Calling people genocide supporters for begrudgingly voting for the least shitty option is going to turn them off of voting. And this sort of purity testing is the kind of I fighting that conservatives love to capitalize on. I despise that the objectively "best" choice is maintaining the status quo vs an accelerated genocide. Call it rationalization, call it cognitive dissonance, the best strategic option I can come up with is voting against a worse genocide.
And at the end of the day all this momentum building could very well be moot as Biden being in office is not a guarantee after this election.
See I don't think of this as "purity testing" because it's genocide... You know? Like is there anything worse? Is there a worse thing that Biden could be supporting?
When I think of purity testing , I think more of a situation like we're finally going to pass socialized healthcare, but dental's not included so let's just hold up the whole thing. That feels like a purity test cuz it's splitting hairs even if it's in a very important hair. When it's enabling genocide or not, there's no hair to be split there. It's just the worst thing you could do.
The Dems not being able to not enable genocide or even really call it out is majorly hurting what their voter outcome is going to be. Regardless of anything I say or do that is just the case.
I'm not going to blame the voters for that. But as we know, most people didn't want to vote for Biden in the first place anyway. They were really voting against Trump so hopefully they'll do it again this November. But the more I see Dems talk about how we just have to suck it up and vote for Joe. Anyway. The more I think that turns voters off.
Which is where I think our ultimate disagreement lies. I believe that defending Joe and telling people they have to vote for him anyway, in the face of the said genocide Will lead to lower voter turnout and possibly hopefully not but maybe a republican win.
I think a bigger strategy that gives people hope even if it's in the long-term will encourage voter turnout and higher voter turnout is better for Democrats.
Regardless, thank you for talking to me like a person and being cool. 🙂
I appreciate the willingness to explore the thoughts deeper rather than turn it into a shouting match. At the end of the day we both want the same thing, stopping a genocide, but we have to work with the hand were dealt and we both have different ideas how to get there.
I hope we get there regardless of the path. 🫂🤝
Good luck and I wish you well
You're at a work retreat for a month, and management is taking a vote on what to get for food. Word is that everyone else is about 50/50 split between BBQ ribs, and pepperoni pizza. You're a vegetarian, what you'd really like is Indian food, but the only ones interested are a handful of other vegetarians. If ribs win, you starve, if pizza wins, you spend the next month picking off pepperonis. How do you vote?
Edit: lots of downvotes, but not a single answer. What a shock.
Again, no one said anything about voting for republicans. How about you try on this hypothetical:
You're president of the USA and the country that receives the highest amount of your foreign aid is committing genocide. If you continue sending billions in dollars and weapons then you lose votes, but if you stop supporting genocide, then you gain votes. How do you president?
But I'm not the president, I'm a voter. I'm not talking to the president, I'm taking to a voter. Hypotheticals about being the president offer no insight into beneficial behavior for myself or the one I'm taking to. Hypotheticals about voting strategy do.
Cool, who do I vote for to stop genocide?
No-genocide hasn't been on the ballot for many, many years. Turns out, the voters who feel strongly enough about this particular genocide for it to affect their vote are a fairly small fraction with characteristically low turnout anyway. Sadly, not really worth actively pursuing as a candidate.
Your choices are between measured diplomatic tolerance of genocide, and enthusiastic acceleration of genocide (with a couple other genocides thrown in too). It's a close race. No genocide doesn't have a chance, and voting no genocide increases the odds of enthusiastic acceleration of genocide.
No-genocide is on the ballot right now and it's being made loud and clear, but biden is choosing to ignore it and people like you are trying to shame the people who care about genocide into not caring about it with hogwash like this:
That is a ridiculous string of words.
I care about genocide, which is why I'm trying to minimize it by preventing Trump from getting into office. Y'know, they guy who thinks Israel should've gotten it over with already? People like you are trying to shame voters into letting the guy who wants more genocide into office. Congratulations, you're voting for more-genocide.
I'm not increasing shit. Biden is increasing the odds by seeing vast swatches of voters say "genocide is bad" and telling them to eat a dick.
One day, you blue MAGA types will grow up and realize this whole "only WE can save America and if you don't vote how we say its actually YOUR fault" shtick is just as fascist as the types you claim to be saving us from.
Biden is working to remove red tape from stripping leftist orgs of nonprofit status, and to make ANY criticism of Israel legally antisemitic so they can strip any college that "allows" protests of funding and accreditation. Both moves are fascist as fuck, but y'all don't actually mind fascism that benefits you - Thats why you all dedicate your time to attacking leftists, your politics and Republican politics are 95% the same. Same reason Biden will never find a "red line," dems would rather a Republican win then move left even a pinch.
Bullshit. The choice is shitty, but it's your choice to make.
Answer my original question:
The sheer amount of privilege to make the equivalent of genocide in your metaphor pepperoni on a pizza you have to pick off.
Jesus f****** Christ.
There are tens of thousands of dead children dude. You call that picking pepperoni off of f****** pizza?
You think there's only a handful of people in this country who care about genocide? Or I'm sorry, apparently caring about genocide means you're a vegan? What are you going to tell me next that killing Indian children is cool because of bacon?
Yikes
Do... you understand how metaphors work?
It's not saying pepperoni pizza and genocide the same, it's saying the underlying mechanics between being forced to chose from 2 choices, one clearly more shitty than the other are similar. It's using a simpler, easy to understand framing device to show the similarity of the thought process.
You're either a moron or a disingenuous piece of shit.
I'm neither but I'm pointing out that in your situation, the parallel of a pepperoni pizza to genocide isn't the same because you can undo pepperoni pizza by taking the pepperonis off. Are you going to unmurder those children?
Tell me in your metaphor where you can pick off the f****** pepperoni tell me what the equivalent is you daft f****** fascist
The pig is dead both ways. Picking off the pepperonis doesn't un-kill the pigs. Millions of pigs slaughtered every year, you don't care about that though. Just like you don't care about the Ukrainians who depend on our aid, or the millions of additional Palestinians who will die when we shift from lackluster Joe to Finish-the-Job Donald
Answer the question you child.
The pig is dead both ways. Are you telling me to accept that all of Palestine has already been killed that there is not killing currently going on??
See this is why the metaphor is f****** stupid And doesn't f****** work?.
There's still innocent leople being slaughtered everyday and you're over here supporting it.
I hope that you take one of their places. I hope that you and your family are killed instead of them because they have a chance of being empathetic where I can tell you're not. I won't be wasting my time replying to you again
No, they're not all dead, because Biden is at least putting some slight pressure on them. How difficult is it to get through your toddler level of object permanence that Trump fully supports this genocide and wants Israel to finish it. If Biden loses, then yes all the Palestinians will be dead. Peddle your Russian troll farm genocide accelerationism someplace else. I know you want to see Palestine and Ukraine glassed, but some of us actually have empathy beyond political performative idealism.
Answer the question or go back to middle school with the other kiddies.
You think the f***** who's supplying weapons to the genociders is slowing down the genocide?
I know I said I wasn't going to respond. That's the dumbest f****** thing I've ever heard.
Let me put it to you. This way if someone's ever torturing you the death, I will slow them down by supplying them the equipment to make you feel the most pain possible.
It's a tragedy that it's not you and your family starving to death and instead it's innocent people.
All right, you really want the question answered. Here's my answer. Genocide's not involved so I'll just eat the f****** pizza. You f****** privileged piece of s***
There you go. Harm reduction, was that so hard? Genocide is absolutely involved, factory farms are horrifying cesspools of daily genocide uniformly supported by both sides , but you don't care because it's not topical. And Russia isn't paying you to push vegetarianism.
When one bad thing is way worse than the other, you choose the less bad one. Biden enables genocide, Trump accelerates it. It's really simple when you actually care more about people's lives than virtue signaling. Which option leads to less suffering, choose that one. As bad a Biden is for Palestine, Trump is worse.
Don't bother with them. They're just a bad-faith actor who goes everywhere they can to peddle "Well, aktually, voting for MORE genocide is GOOD" bullshite.
It's never for them, it's for the on-lookers who might think they have a point.
As an onlooker, I'm happy to inform you both that I've been convinced to vote third party thanks.
Are you bragging about not understanding American elections, being an actual fascist, or deliberately voting against your personal interests? It's gotta be the fascism right? Who would brag about being ignorant or counterproductive?
None of the above. I understand how this country's electoral system works. I'm also a socialist farthest thing that could be from a fascist.
Did you just throw a bunch of random questions out there because you're a dumbass? Just kidding, I already know the answer is yes 🤣
Counterproductive to what genocide?
Basic logic. Third parties aren't viable in American presidential elections because of the spoiler effect present in our FPTP system. That means that you're happy to say you're voting third party because 1. You don't understand this basic fact 2. You do understand this basic fact, but it doesn't bother you because enabling the fascist voting block by throwing your vote away pleases you. 1 is self-explanatory, 2 is explained by either being a fascist yourself, or by being masochistically pleased by enabling fascists against your interests.
Being an actual socialist, who is against fascism, is incompatible with voting third party. Which means you either don't understand the electoral system (ignorant) or you do but you're enabling the fascist genocide accelerationists anyway (counterproductive).
Once again, splitting the vote to try to "teach the Democrats a lesson" is precisely what the Republicans want, since it increases their chances of winning. Another thing the Republicans want, once they win, is to wipe Palestine off the face of the earth, which is objectively worse for Palestinians (total-genocide) than Democrats (historic status quo of mild genocide). Total casualties are presently a relatively small proportion of Palestinians, that proportion will increase significantly under the MAGA administration.
MAGA increases genocide, splitting left vote to third party enables MAGA. Voting third party is counterproductive to fighting Palestinian genocide, Q.E.D.
Whose alt account are you? Don't you get your pay docked for being this obvious?