818
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[-] ytg@sopuli.xyz 24 points 6 months ago

Similarly, 1/3 = 0.3333…
So 3 times 1/3 = 0.9999… but also 3/3 = 1

Another nice one:

Let x = 0.9999… (multiply both sides by 10)
10x = 9.99999… (substitute 0.9999… = x)
10x = 9 + x (subtract x from both sides)
9x = 9 (divide both sides by 9)
x = 1

[-] zarkanian@sh.itjust.works 16 points 6 months ago

My favorite thing about this argument is that not only are you right, but you can prove it with math.

[-] SmartmanApps@programming.dev 0 points 6 months ago

you can prove it with math

Not a proof, just wrong. In the "(substitute 0.9999… = x)" step, it was only done to one side, not both (the left side would've become 9.99999), therefore wrong.

[-] ytg@sopuli.xyz 0 points 5 months ago

The substitution property of equality is a part of its definition; you can substitute anywhere.

[-] SmartmanApps@programming.dev 0 points 5 months ago

you can substitute anywhere

And if you are rearranging algebra you have to do the exact same thing on both sides, always

[-] SmartmanApps@programming.dev 1 points 5 months ago

And if you don't then you can no longer claim they are still equal.

[-] ytg@sopuli.xyz 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

For any a, b, c, if a = b and b = c, then a = c, right? The transitive property of equality.
For any a, b, x, if a = b, then x + a = x + b. The substitution property.
By combining both of these properties, for any a, b, x, y, if a = b and y = b + x, it follows that b + x = a + x and y = a + x.

In our example, a is x' (notice the ') and b is 0.999… (by definition). y is 10x' and x is 9. Let's fill in the values.

If x' = 0.9999… (true by definition) and 10x = 0.999… + 9 (true by algebraic manipulation), then 0.999… + 9 = x' + 9 and 10x' = x' + 9.

if you are rearranging algebra you have to do the exact same thing on both sides

If you actually change any of the sides. Since, after substitution, the numeric value doesn't change (literally the definition of equality), I don't have to do anything – as I'm not rearranging. I'm merely presenting the same value in an equivalent manner. By contrast, when multiplying both sides by 10, since multiplication by 10 changes the concrete numeric value, I have to do it on both sides to maintain the equality relation (ditto for subtracting x'). But substitution never changes a numeric value – only rearranges what we already know.


(Edit)

Take the following simple system of equations.

5y = 3
x + y = 6

How would you solve it? Here's how I would:

\begin{gather*} %% Ignore the LaTeX boilerplate, just so I could render it
\begin{cases}
y = \frac{3}{5} \\ % Isolate y by dividing both sides by 5
x = 6 - y % Subtract y from both sides
\end{cases} \\
x = 6 - \frac{3}{5} \\ % SUBSTITUTE 3/5 for y
x = 5.4 \\
(x, y) = (5.4, 0.6)
\end{gather*}

Here's how Microsoft Math Solver would do it.

[-] SmartmanApps@programming.dev 1 points 5 months ago

10x = 0.999… + 9 (true by algebraic manipulation)

No, you haven't shown that, because you haven't shown yet that 9x=9. Welcome to why this doesn't prove anything. You're presuming your result, then using it to "prove" your result.

What we know is that the right hand side is 10 times 0.9999..., so if you want to substitute x=0.99999... into the right hand side, then the right hand side becomes 10x (or 9x+x)... which only shows what we already know - 10x=10x. Welcome to the circularity of what you're trying to achieve. You can't use something you haven't yet proven, to prove something you haven't yet proven.

[-] zarkanian@sh.itjust.works 0 points 6 months ago

They multiplied both sides by 10.

0.9999... times 10 is 9.9999...

X times 10 is 10x.

[-] SmartmanApps@programming.dev 0 points 6 months ago

X times 10 is 10x

10x is 9.9999999....

As I said, they didn't substitute on both sides, only one, thus breaking the rules around rearranging algebra. Anything you do to one side you have to do to the other.

this post was submitted on 27 Jun 2024
818 points (95.2% liked)

Science Memes

11442 readers
1482 users here now

Welcome to c/science_memes @ Mander.xyz!

A place for majestic STEMLORD peacocking, as well as memes about the realities of working in a lab.



Rules

  1. Don't throw mud. Behave like an intellectual and remember the human.
  2. Keep it rooted (on topic).
  3. No spam.
  4. Infographics welcome, get schooled.

This is a science community. We use the Dawkins definition of meme.



Research Committee

Other Mander Communities

Science and Research

Biology and Life Sciences

Physical Sciences

Humanities and Social Sciences

Practical and Applied Sciences

Memes

Miscellaneous

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS