Ask Lemmy
A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions
Rules: (interactive)
1) Be nice and; have fun
Doxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, toxicity and dog-whistling are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. Please familiarize yourself with them
2) All posts must end with a '?'
This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?
3) No spam
Please do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.
4) NSFW is okay, within reason
Just remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either !asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world or !asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com.
NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].
5) This is not a support community.
It is not a place for 'how do I?', type questions.
If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to Lemmy.world Support or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.
6) No US Politics.
Please don't post about current US Politics. If you need to do this, try !politicaldiscussion@lemmy.world or !askusa@discuss.online
Reminder: The terms of service apply here too.
Partnered Communities:
Logo design credit goes to: tubbadu
view the rest of the comments
yep. you could always downsize your lifestyle to take a lower paying job.
but people don't want to do that. they see that as horrible and tragic and generally feel entitled to maintain or increase their lifestyle costs.
it's interesting, my dad was unemployed for 3 years and I faced the very real possibility of not going to college, and helping pay for my family costs starting at the age of 15. to me this was just life, but i tell this story and people act like the idea of a 15 year old kid having to help his parents pay for stuff is 'tragic and traumatic'. for a lot of people... it's just life. we do what we had to do to pay bills and we made as many cutbacks as we could.
my brother has been unemployed for 5 years... because he refuses to take a 'job less than he deserves'. he's made himself essentially unemployable. the irony being... his last job he quit because he felt the pay wasn't good enough for his 'level of education and achievement'. his wife has been the sole provider for 5 years because of his arrogance and pride. it's fucking weird to me.
This is extremely hard if your lifestyle is already downgraded.
In the USA, many are only a few paychecks away from being homeless (going 3 or 5 years unemployed would be a pipe dream to them). A downgrade could be moving your kids into a tent or having the state take them away from you.
Rock and a hard place, in these circumstances.
and how is it they are in that circumstance other than through their own choices?
why is it that, they have no decided 'this is not how i want to live my life and I need to do things to not be in this situation.'
because people do, make that choice. they make the choice to not be paycheck to paycheck, and some folks, spend their entire lives, no matter how much they make, living paycheck to paycheck.
some people just make really really bad choices, their entire lives. and yeah, they are in shitty situations, but it's entirely of their own making. they are not helpless unfortunate victims of circumstance... they just never really thought about the future and lived life form moment to moment and now they are middle aged and broke and wondering how they will survive...
some of us.... didn't want to end up like that so we make different life choices than they did. i grew up in a poor community, and watched friends make shitty choice after shitty choice, and just stopped interacting with them because they were ruining their own lives of their own free will and volition. Why should I feel any pity for these people? especially when they became bitter towards my good choices, and my success that came from those good choices?
especially when at the time 30 years ago, they insulted and harassed me for saving my money and investing in myself and called me a douchebag for not loaning them money to buy drugs, concert tickets, traveling and other necessarily things they could not afford?
I get that you want to feel bad for people who are bad financial situations but my own experience has proven to me again and again, people mostly do this to themselves, often out of a sense of entitlement that other people OWE them financial stability, rather they them seeking to build it for themselves. I've also seen people who come from well-off families piss away their opportunities too, and their excuse is always that their parents didn't 'give them enough', even though their parents gave them way more than I ever dreamed of getting from my family... WEIRD how that works.
but hey, it's 2026, where being a hard-working person who builds up your own life through hard work and good choices makes you a selfish bad person? warped timeline we live in.
Please take this as kindly as I’m offering it. From this comment, to me it sounds like you make a lot of assumptions about everyone’s intentions but only listen to your own.
Decenter yourself when thinking about others, I think you’re comparing everyone to your own circumstances rather than truly empathizing.
Not saying you’re necessarily conservative, but this “I did it right and they’re doing it wrong” attitude always dissolves when it suddenly affects them and they “didn’t realize it was that bad”
Intentions don't matter. Results do.
My work doesn't care if I intense to do a good job. They care if I actually do it. Nor do you.
No, I do empathize. I went through a miserable and painful experience losing friends over their shitty choices, who refused my help and advice, who turn and blamed me for not 'helping' them by me giving they my money to enable their shitty choices. And yes, they told me off about what a MONSTER i was for doing this. For saying 'no, friend/girlfriend/family member, i'm not goign to loan you $500 to buy booze and drugs'
God, why is it that so many folks on here seem to think they are saints and that anyone who doesn't share their aspirational sainthood is some monster of a human being who lacks empathy? Have you had friends/family beg you for drug money? Did you just give it to them? Have you had people steal form you, and vandalize your property because you refused to give them what they felt you owed them? And what, you think that in that situation I was the asshole?
No, they do know what they are doing is bad. That is your false assumption. People PRETEND they don't. Cheaters, lairs, thieves, criminals, will all ARGUE with you that when they do it it's not bad! But if you do it to them, you're a monster.
The difference between us, is I acknowledge objectively shitty and awful people exist. You don't. You seem to to think shitty people are like innocent. Which makes me seriously question what kind of privileged life you have lead where you seem to think nobody is ever at fault for their own choices... except me, right. I'm at fault for my lack of empathy for not giving my drug-chasing friends in my 20s money... and it's MY FAULT they got busted by the cops, ended up in prison, and so on, right? If only I had loaned them that $500 in 2002 their life would be on the straight and narrow!
Give me a break with this nonsense. You are not empathic, you're just naive to the point of delusion and you want use the term 'empathy' as a weapon to shame and beat others into agreement with you. I don't agree with you, and if you think that makes me a shitty person... perhaps that's because you're not such a great person.
Except when it’s yourself I presume
No. My intentions don't matter to other people. Nor should they.
What I find hilarious though, is other people's bitterness towards me for my happiness and success in my life, that I achieved after decades of hard work and sacrifice and deprivation of my immediate wants so I could build myself a better future. People who are poorer than me, tell me I'm a rich undeserving asshole, and people richer than me, tell me I'm a loser for not having as much as they do, even though I have more than I ever wanted. People I meet who are able the same, just don't care either way....
anyway, you are not kind. what you are is patronizing and negative, because i articulated a life experience you do not find emotionally palatable, because it contrasts with your world view that people are inherently good and just make mistakes.
some people do make mistakes, those people are not 55 and living paycheck to paycheck. those people simple refused to save their money for the future.
Why do you feel that the bitterness stems from your success or happiness? For me, I’m generally happy when I hear of successes of others. It sounds like you’re on your feet and in a much better position than before, and honestly every success deserves some praise or we get nowhere don’t we. But why do you feel others aren’t sharing in some joy in your development? Is it just some unpleasant individuals or is this like, everyone you meet
because people hate people who are different than them. because it hurts their feelings. hence why they overwhelmingly tend to want to only socialized and live with people who are very very similar to themselves, and see people who are different as threats. and similarly, many people's lives are consumed by petty jealousies and social comparisons and judgements of what others deserve and don't deserve, including themselves.
I'm glad you are like that. Some people are, a but a lot of folks, are not. They see the world though a very bitter lens of what they feel they are owed by other people, in a very one-sided way. And personally, I do not identify or understand that viewpoint on the world myself. I have never felt anyone owed me anything and I generally feel grateful for the things I was able to achieve, so I really can't emotionally relate to folks who think I, or anyone else, owes them things.
increasingly we seem to live in a world where nobody admits fault or takes personal responsibility, sadly. And it's having dire consequences for our society, at least in the western world. people rarely go 'what can i offer to others' anymore. they go 'what can others give to me, and why aren't they giving it to me, and why isn't it more'.
it's not everyone I meet at all, but it's very much a cultural shift that has been happening the past 10 years, to the point where these attitudes and beliefs were rare, and now they are increasingly common.
Is it true that 30 years ago people took more responsibility than today? Or were the times you recall of humility just as unique then as they are now
And also in what ways? Is taking responsibility a single act or does it require constant effort? Is it a destination? Can someone take responsibility and still fail after? And if that happens do you remember the times it worked or do you only regard the time it failed?
30 years ago the culture was different, and yes responsibility was far more prevalent and those who lacked it were looked down upon instead of praised.
all you have to do is go back 30 years. watch political debates, read news articles, watch TV shows. You'll be SHOCKED at how culturally different it was compared to today. it's mind-blowing how 'adult' the content was.
it's both. it's systematic. it's a habit. you learn from your failures, you do not let them be definitive of yourself.
Ok
'greed is good'.
when this line dropped in 1987, it was considered shocking and controversial.
now it's considered gospel and questioning it, is shocking and controversial.
I’m not sure I’m following?
If people try their best to make it work and it works: they made the choice to do better
If people try their best to make it work and fail: I don't think they've made the choice to fail.
Our disagreement seems to be somewhere in these details.
You believe this? Why?
It's all about dumb luck. No, it's not because they worked hard. It's because they're lucky.
Getting lucky/being in the right place at the right time is DEFINITELY a big factor in success. So much is out of our hands.
yes, but they make the choice to stop trying, and then then are guaranteed to fail.
everyone fails at shit. the difference is some of us try again, and again, and we learn and improve. others just give up and never try again, and then blame other people for their failure and use it as an excuse to never ever try to make things better for themselves.
I am actively going through this with one of my nephews. me and his parents both have to constantly lecture and fight him to get him to try, because he often decides trying is not worth the effort and he'd rather just fail. and the irony is... when he does try he does really well, but he seems to think it's not good enough, so why even bother. He'd rather get an F, than a C/B, and it's scary AF we can't break him out of this mentality, because none of us want him to be a failure of a person, but he seems stubbornly insistent making choices that guarantee he does fail. he also lies to his parents, gets caught in the lie, and gets angry at them for his own lies...
and his teachers all do the same thing. they are more than happy to encourage him and help him and improve his grades when he does do this, but often he systematically just refuses their help and then gets angry and blames them. then his mom goes to the teachers and they talk through it all, and it's clear that the fault is not with the teachers, it's him who ignores the teachers and sometimes straight up lies about the help he is offered.
he really just can't seem to connect the fact that if he tries and puts in the effort he will do well, but it won't be perfect or as good as other kids. and that's totally OK. and we are all hoping he gets through this, and doesn't become bitter and nasty and give up on his life because he seems to think life should be effortless for him and he should get As for never putting in any effort at school. it's scary to think that he could easily take that track in life.
and to make things worse, he has a brother who studies and works his balls off, and is really really good and got into very prestigious college... and instead of being happy for his brother he's just kind of bitter about it... despite his brother always always always trying to help him with his school work. he seems to be like just bitter that his brother has made much better choices, and reaps the rewards of those choices, and uses it to justify his own shitty view of himself that he will 'never live up' so why even bother.
and it sucks even more because I had friends just like him, smart people who just pissed away their lives into low-effort bitterness, who used me and other more successful people as excuses to fuck up their lives actively and willingly, and i am 1000% with his parents on making sure he doesn't end up like that. he doesn't have to be a fucking rocket scientist, just self-sufficient.
I never said they stopped trying. You can keep trying and keep failing. There's a point in time where something becomes essentially impossible to succeed at with your current resources (including time).
Take the class example you were giving, where your nephew didn't get a perfect grade and gave up/adopted a bad attitude that made his academic progress falter.
Isolate this time period to one packed class. Some students are going to sleep through class and still get an A. Others are going to try and study every night, yet still get a back grade. Others will be like your nephew, sure. This is the reality of life. That doesn't mean they should give up for the next class, but surely you see what I'm saying, right? Once the class ends, there's no opportunity to go back in time and get a better grade.
and what you don't get, is that some people stop trying entirely and basically just fail automatically, and then blame other people for this, because they refuse to take responsibility for themselves.
sorry, have you never known people like this? I haven't known person after person after person like this. They are everywhere.
I'm not referring to those people, though. You are. I agree that they exist and that they chose the wrong path.
I'm referring to the people that try and still fail, as per my original post. Can you acknowledge them?
how would you downsize kids and a mortgage?
this is not how it works. all of these probably started being a thing when the outlook was not nearly as bleak as now.
smaller house. cheaper town.
but people absolutely refuse to do this. they refuse to downgrade.
Downsize your lifestyle? Like, shooting your kids? Not eat?
No. cheaper car, cheaper home, no luxuries.