this post was submitted on 26 Jan 2026
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People here should debate rightists instead of criticizing fellow leftists.
And more generally, as Viki1999 liked to point out, i'd personally go even further and ask for left unity in these difficult times :
My POV is that yugo has a big audience and should be mindful of what he says, especially since he knows his audience is mostly baby leftists. And secondly Johnstone has herself gone on unhinged rants before:
She herself is a weird hodgepodge of liberalism and mildly progressive views. She's said several times she's not a communist and actively refuses to become one.
And when they're called out for it they double down trying to "explain" how they were right and then never change. They have 0 material analysis, they're just doing vibes-based politics. Is this how yugo wants to conduct politics with the masses? Would he publish this rant under a party name? If not, then why publish it on twitter under his own name? This is the kind of stuff you say with friends, and they gently steer you in the right direction.
Why are our idols now streamers and youtubers? Why do we care what these petty bourgeois enthusiasts who try to make a living taking money from baby comrades think about how struggle is conducted? Of course they'll defend their petty-bourgeois views when it comes down to it. That's what makes them money. Viki herself took a long break because she made, you guessed it, deeply ignorant remarks.
Yet they call for left-unity and expect us to side with their shit views and opinions, sweep them under the rug, while they continue on thinking and spouting whatever words they want. But it's us, the marxist-leninists, that have to be on our best behavior around them.
Like I don't know, I don't always have the right takes and I've made comments to people on the internet that I regret. I apologize to them and talk to friends to understand the problem and synthesize my own conclusion from it. I don't tell more principled people that they're the ones who need to change and not me, cause that's what they're doing here. Coming from caitlin and vicki, it's deeply selfish and self-centered to say this. They think because they're big names with an audience that automatically makes them right and everyone else wrong.
When Lenin said "Among the Jews there are workers, toilers, they are in the majority. They are our brothers, comrades in the struggle for Socialism, because they are oppressed by capitalism. Among the Jews there are Kulaks, exploiters, capitalists, just like amongst us all," he preceded it with:
Notice Lenin didn't say "you must have faulty genes if you believe otherwise you disabled r-word".
Criticism and self-criticism is a core component of marxism to progress forward. Normally it implies we find issues to remedy and then remedy them, so we all progress together. In this case, I'm not really sure where to even begin. I think it speaks for itself (esp. the "now I'm not calling them the r-word, just the diminutive that's acceptable in your circles :)")
But people don't deserve to have their shit takes swept under the rug just because they're nominally on "our side". He chose to publish this on Twitter and leave it up, what are we supposed to do? Smile while he continues saying whatever unhinged shit crosses his mind that day under the shower, never getting challenged for it? What example does this set for the new leftists that watch him, who start to think communism is just about appearing edgy and being counter-culture?
I want to leave one last thought; you suggest to debate rightists, but why not rightist views and right deviationist views? Not everyone who calls themselves a communist is immediately our comrade, people don't suddenly develop all the correct theory and ideas as soon as they proclaim themselves to be a marxist.
I wrote a long answer(, in which i agree with a lot of things you said, it was well-written and thank you for taking such a long time), but i won't post it since you banned me.
I just want to say as my last words that i could have banned you for saying that C.Johnstone is a liberal with midly progressive views, or that yugopnik is defending petty-bourgeois views, clearly crazy opinions. Of course i wouldn't do that because everyone makes mistakes, but i could have, and you think it couldn't happen to you but i wouldn't ask for your opinion, you'd just be banned whether it's just or not.
Bye.
I didn't ban you.
Then i owe you an apology.
(I still won't answer you since that'd be going further in the ban evasion, and it's too long you have better things to do, but in short they tolerate our leftism but we don't tolerate theirs, sometimes cancelling them but we need numbers, so-called "antifas" tried to cancel people like Étienne Chouard or David Rovics, yugopnik could hopefully understand your point and his tweet wasn't meant to be taken that seriously, he's just saying half-jokingly "i can't explain it otherwise because the far-right is not logical by any mean !", good quote&point from Lenine, saying that people from the far-right ought to have lost some chromosomes would be an ableist joke ?, that post isn't helpful to yugopnik in the way you're presenting it since he won't see it so that's more like talking in his back, nor is it addressed in a loving manner, i don't believe you intended to harm him though because you'd have been contented with knowing that he understood his mistake, and also because as you say you were opposing the rightist view and not the leftist individual)
I think it's better to write that than nothing. I don't intend to come back here because in that comment i ended up complaining about the downvotes solely because the mods were scaring me, it's not an enjoyable feeling.
But please take care of lemmygrad, it's an important place on Lemmy and i'm still glad that it exists.
Actually i was the one one who reported you and got you banned. It wasn't for some arbitrary reason it was for using the r-slur then implying its acceptable as "its the official terminology" despite it being horribly offensive, ableist, and archaic. This is why I left the post explaining areas of growth that you should focus on.
Id completely support you getting unbanned if you touch some grass and ask someone with an intellectual disabiltiy themselves whether or not the r-slur is acceptable.
It really depends on the criticism. I remember when I used to hang out on "left" twitter, on occasion I'd see stuff where it was like telephone game style personal spats that were impossible for an observer to follow and understand, and so it was more just the kind of conflict that might have been resolved with a proper sit-down and mediator, or at least clarified better what the problem was.
This case is pretty clear though just from reading the one tweet itself. It's a problem of ideological line and that's something we do need to crit in each other. Otherwise, we're just doing the liberal thing of going along to get along:
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-2/mswv2_03.htm
Self-criticism is common practice among MLs:
https://web.archive.org/web/20240425185930/https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/1934/10/h-g-wells-it-seems-me-i-am-more-left-you-mr-stalin
Unprincipled criticism, backbiting, etc., can be a problem:
But strong unity of the ML kind is forged by working through problems, not paving over them with social niceties in public while holding onto resentments in private (that's liberalism).
If people don't denigrate him, but criticize him in a friendly manner then i have no problem. It's just the all too common "character assassination" i have a problem with(, especially for such little things, and even more among leftists).
If it's just an occasion to discuss about the influence of genetics on behavior then i have zero problem with this, i just hope that people here won't suddenly hate yugopnik just for that, which is probably unlikely to happen, so i shouldn't have concerned myself with it.
I suppose that i just didn't want to resist posting that quote from C.Johnstone.
That quote was what i was alluding to(, while remembering one time when many people on Lemmy falsely accused Nutomic himself of being transphobic, with people exciting themselves over nothing and calling for his resignation, so stupid, the same thing happened for Linus Torvalds because he wrote a harsh email to someone working for him, let's just focus our anger on more productive things than bringing down people on our side) :
I don't generally try to operate on hate, myself. Except maybe for the most obvious exploiters of the world, but then it's more incidental hate as a result of finding out what horrific shit they've done, than an active preoccupied effort to hate. Hating someone takes energy. I'd rather put my energy into working out how to dismantle systems of oppression.
I am suspicious of people who purport to be on the left and say stuff like he did though. I feel I have good reason to be, given the history of internet-based "leftists" who are bad at sticking to a clear ideological line. It's possible he can be corrected on this and change his ways, but his position as e-celeb (however small the level of celebrity may be) makes it harder to directly engage in criticism with him, as peers. So we have to correct and warn people as we can.
As i said in another comment, he most likely doesn't really believe that people are born to be far-right, it's more of an insult saying that they were born with some innate cerebral deficiency, and that otherwise they couldn't possibly develop such p.o.v.
If i'm not mistaken he's often shitposting, it's an insult, that's all, not that deep, nor someone calling covertly for eugenics.
Anyway, if you don't suddenly hate him now, then ok, i probably overreacted and should have ignored that post.
This sounds a lot like the "schrodinger's douchebag" excuse:
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=schrodinger%E2%80%99s+douchebag
Anyway, insults are not just insults. They carry ideology with them. If I were to use a slur against you, it would be carrying water for the ideology of that slur, even if I don't actively believe in it myself.
That the far-right is mentally ret*rded
proclaims unity
Uses divisive ableist language
Do better
Do they really care though if i use the word stupid instead of ret*arded ?
Is r*tard some kind of official name to designate them unlike stupid, like jew, dwarf, or n*gger, hence why it shouldn't be used in the context of an insult ?
Well, w/e, ok then, it's not as if i had any problem with the "mentally challenged" minority.
"they" are human beings
Now you're juste ragebaiting me(, if not from the start) 🙄
Why does every discussion i have online ends up in a clash, even on Lemmygrad ?
I'm sorry, are you just poorly articulating yourself or is your position that you agree with the assertion that people with intellectual disabilities are "not human?"
For your own personal development: its a mixture of failure to empathize, poor articulation, and likely a lack of reading and socialization/experience.
Do doctors still call them ret*rd ? And if they now call them mentally challenged, then am i allowed to use mentally challenged as a slur against someone else ?
Then i'm allowed to insult someone by saying they're stupid, but not by saying that they're mentally challenged, otherwise it's an ableist slur, i think i got it(, not sure).
I've been banned for that, because i'm apparently ableist, which i know i'm not but what i believe doesn't matter. I won't be coming back so you'll say good riddance i guess, bye 🫶
You weren't being called ableist. The language you were using is ableist. There is a difference. Not all criticism is a personal attack on you.
This is a childish overreaction. I'm sure the ban wasn't meant to be permanent, just to give you some time to cool down. All you need to do is stop being so defensive, accept the comradely criticism and move on, and so will everyone else. You don't need to win every argument or immediately throw a tantrum and leave over being called out when you are wrong about something.
Even if you still think you are right, this is a ML space. It behooves you to accept the democratic centralist consensus on this issue. Leave your ego at the door.
I'm technically doing ban evasion so i won't stay long, but i can't help but continue to be curious, sorry. I shouldn't insult someone with the r-word because that's ableist, i shouldn't also say as an insult that they're mentally challenged for the same reason, but i can say that they're stupid, am i right ?
I'm not mocking you by asking this question, it may sound obvious to you but i live in France so we may not have that here( yet).
I've seen that it's a slur, but i honestly don't know if the r-word extend to the word "stupid", since there's no difference between these two medical terms(, my surprise can be understood i think).
Even words like dumb, stupid, imbecile, moron have always had an ableist subtext. But that subtext has somewhat eroded over time because we don't call mentally disabled folks those in a clinical sense (except for dumb). I don't like using these words myself but it's not a big deal to use these words.
R*tarded meanwhile to this day means mentally disabled as a clinical category. It is always used as an insult and a pejorative. It has the implication that mentally disabled people are subhuman. This makes the term exclusionary and robs disabled people from the chance of being a part of the rest of the society, something that is their right. Even "mentally disabled" is an uncharitable descriptor. Most people labeled as such are just different and can contribute to the society just as much as a so called able people can given that they are accepted and accomodated for. Conditions where there is a full spectrum mental disability are a subset of all the conditions which are labelled as mental disability.
Then there is the issue that most people you are calling r*tarded are in fact not technically r*tarded. They are being asinine for some other reason. But if you call them r*tarded you are insulting, along with them, all the mentally disabled for no good reason. At best you are inconsiderate and at worst you think disabled people are subhuman which makes you an ableist.
I must at least add another comment because i didn't know that you were an admin. In fact i didn't even realized that i was talking to @cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml, thinking that the last two answers were from @Perplexed@lemmy.ml.
I think it was worth adding a comment, if only to say that.
I've no reason to be an ass-licker since i've already been unbanned(, and have nothing to gain from improving relations since i won't use this account), so it's without ulterior motives that i say i respect you for the volunteer/unpaid work you're doing for lemmygrad, and also for these books you flatter yourself to have read, it's easy to respect others for what ‘they know’/’i ignore’.
Don’t you think that some users above, and even more the responsible for the ban, were wrong to act as they did ? I don’t think you do, nor that you ever apologized for a ban you emitted, at least that's how i view mods on lemmy and reddit.
Cfgaussian was saying that i’m not accused of ableism but of using ableist language, isn’t that stupid(, the s-word is allowed right) ? I was discussing the r-word, so i obviously had to use the r-word, otherwise how could i make it understood that i was talking about it ? Or there’s perhaps another reason justifying my ban that i miss or was kept from me.
There’s either a good reason for banning me or a due apology, and i bet that you won’t be able to find a reason.
I don't think it played in the decision, but this account was permabanned for allegedly being a zionist since i was/'am still' looking for a solution that would be accepted by all sides : https://telegra.ph/Examples-of-solutions-to-the-conflict-Palestine-Israel-02-27
I unfortunately had more than one occasion to think again about Palestine-Israel these last weeks, since Israel is bent on keeping to themselves the whole holy lands, destroy al-Asqa, … The problem with 'not being loved'/'might makes right'/'not caring about others' is initially for the weak, then for the strong when it becomes weaker that its neighbours, and in the meantime it also can’t create a beautiful idea(l)/future/world.
I’m only zionist in the sense that i can understand why they want a jewish nation with their own ideals/culture/rules, knowing that they won’t be persecuted for their religion/’rejection of christianism and islam’ again( as long as they can defend their new borders). Whether their country ends up being in the u.s., in a desert, under the sea, or on Mars, i don’t care as long as they’re accepted by their neighbours, and aren’t commiting all these despicable acts(, the list is too long, torture of prisoners, starvation, rapes, ‘bad faith’/lying arguments/propaganda/behaviour, preventing ambulances from intervening, and all kind of (daily )oppressions, all for the intention of keeping the whole holy lands to themselves).
If i’m told that the jews should never have a country under any circumstance, since no minority is ever entitled to having a land, i’d answer that it’d be nice if that minority could, provided that it is large enough and persecuted, and as long as there’s no other place on earth where that minority has its place. The Earth is large enough.
I love Türkiye for many reasons(, and the Muslim Brotherhood for even more reasons), and i can’t help but hope that the kurdish culture will continue to survive, we’re not diverse enough i.m.o. We’re americanized in France/Europe/’the west’/’different places of the world’, and destroyed our regional identities in France, because our differences may cause separatism(, i’m convinced that this is a problem of institutions, that such diversity doesn’t necessarily imply a weaker unity, even for a confederation of city-states, e.g. with a common army and only a handful of common laws etc.)
There's no point in explaining why unity/harmony is obviously more desirable than hate/wars/sanctions/.., nor why it’s diversity that makes our wealth(, which is as tautological as saying that a world without colors would be grey)
Not that my opinion changed(, and while i did learn many things), it’s nice that reading books was the condition to revert my permaban.
It’s worth underlining that if Lemmygrad was from the far-right, then i’d be banned due to an excessive disgust of the mods for the minorities(, seems like a big part of their criticism of the woke ideology) ; while, since it’s from the far-left, i’m banned due an excessive support of the mods for the minorities(, excessive in the sense that it sees opponents{ableists here} everywhere)
I made sousmerde_rtrdataire because soumerd_r*tardataire had the (french )word r*tard(, which is filtered by hexbear and prevented me from posting there), ironic
Pamphlets loves using that word, and when it retweeted this from Visegrad(, without adding any comment ^^), it made me chuckle
Since the freedom to be able to insult others is not the kind of freedom i care about, i’ve got nothing against banning the r-word, or even against banning all insults and vulgar words(, it’d make you a common point with the religious people, so that’s a plus i guess), at least an overall taboo would seem more logical than picking one word while continuing to use commonly all the rest. I never claimed once the right to say the r-word though, i was just asking questions(, which were out-of-topic from the original post,) to understand what seems a bit idiotic/dumb/~~ret*rded~~.
And if i 'angered you'/’am flirting with a permaban' by ending my last sentence like this, then don’t take it personally, i’m just underlining what seems incoherent by putting these words side by side with others still commonly used, since it seems arbitrary, i didn’t get it and asked about that, and i still don’t completely get the hysteria/overreaction/ban. More generally, one only progresses through contradiction.
With the help of LLMs, i understood that the r-word kinda replaced all the previous ones in 1961 by the organization Arc of the United States, it was already considered more empathetic than the previous terms(, « they’re just delayed/’have some more r*tard than others »), and it took 20 years to be more official(, in the DSM-III in 1980). The r-word was then progressively replaced in the 90s by ‘’mental disability’’, again taking 20 years to be more officially accepted(, the Rosa’s law, after the relatively recent 2009 campaign Spread the Word to End the Word, which some americans on Lemmy may have participated in, a period that may have influenced 4Chan extensive use of this word).
Then i suppose that my question « why this word out of all the others ? » would be answered by history, and not logic ? Perhaps that if this particular insult is intolerable, while 'the others'/dumb/idiotic/moronic/stupid/.. are still commonly used, it’s because it illustrates a conflict between two schools of thoughts : using the old r-word means belonging to an ‘’essentialist’’ side that put the blame on the biology of the mentally disabled, while i’ve learned since that the word ‘’disable’’ apparently shift the blame on society(, e.g. a person in a wheelchair is only disabled by h·er·is legs in front of a building if this building only has stairs). In english apparently, there’s a distinction between the word ''impaired'' accusing the body, and ''disabled'' accusing society, at least in theory because i’m not sure that everyone makes this distinction.
Even if these attempts at historical&philosophical explanations weren’t lacking so much, i’d still not understand what made my ban justified though. And i.d.k. if you were the one to ban me initially, but i didn’t saw that answer(, which said before the account deletion ''of course not, you’re awful and shouldn't be allowed on leftist spaces), since i was replying to this comment, if i'd been quicker then i could have cleared the misunderstanding, if there was one. Since the intensive reaction felt excessive i challenged what appeared to be mistakes instead of keeping my thoughts to myself.
More generally, Lemmy imported the same moderation as Reddit, you just get instabanned by a power mod, no question asked, no strike, no possibility of correcting the problematic comment, just g.t.f.o.
I was already opposed to that awful system a long time ago, and Lemmy(grad) didn’t improve or worsen my opinion that almost nothing is to be kept from it. There’s not a single community on Reddit or Lemmy where moderators warn the user before a ban, offering the possibility to correct the problem, and it’s probably because it’d take too much time. State censorship on our internet is coming at a scary speed and i feel that all is lost, so truly Lemmygrad’s censorship matters not in my eyes(, i.e., whether it changes or not won’t influence what’s coming).
Thanks for having read that long comment, and for the free time you 'are giving'/gave to Lemmygrad, perhaps will we see each other again on Lemmy these next years !
Ok, that's honestly weird, because the r-word simply means that they're a bit more late than others(, it comes from the french ret*rder = to delay), while mentally disabled implies that they don't have a mental world
And except for idiot(, mental age < 2-3 y.o.), imbecile(, 3-7 y.o.), and moron(, 7-12 y.o.), ...
I genuinely don't know why the r-word was an exception out of all these terms.
I also don't know how the r-word can rob them of anything(, just like calling someone an idiot don't seem to rob them of anything), but it manifestedly comes from a good intention.
I suppose that i can't insult someone of being a son of a b*tch since that'd be insulting to sex workers, implying that the latter are "subhumans". But i suppose that an insult like "piece of shit" is ok only because a shit isn't conscious.
Let's change our language to be less exclusive, why not. Let's also change the mods so that they're less of an asshole.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to explain all this in such a kind manner.
Yep, that would be a problem. Directing it at rightists doesn't give it the characteristics of leftism. It's still got the rightist stench clinging to it. This is why it's so important to interrogate reflexes even long after conscious beliefs change. Our habits do not change overnight based on what we believe in.
Yeah, ok, we're different from the right because we're differing on some goals AND on some means.
Furthermore, the far-right is just mistaken, everyone makes mistakes, obviously, it's not a genetic problem.
But i find it funny when he says that they're innately ret*rded, 🤷
W/e, i won't take more of your time
Why is it funny to you though? Keep in mind that the connotations of that word are tied to marginalization and caricature. It's possible you find a caricature funny without realizing that it's a harmful and hurtful representation of people who have never actually existed in the caricature form, in order to justify marginalizing them. In other words, it may be the joke is on you for thinking you're looking down on someone and you're laughing at a specter that was created to justify oppression.
We don't need to be ableist in order to laugh at the right sometimes. I'll tell you something I think is funny, when the consequences of their bullshit come back to bite them, like alluded to here: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/10509392
You're right, if other people than the ones i'm aiming the insult at are also hurt, then i shouldn't hurt them, we can do better indeed.
But that kind of internet trial in his back didn't please me, as i said before i should have just ignored the post.
It was sincerely very nice talking with you, thanks a lot :) !
Citing Viki is a bad idea considering how she ended up supporting Israels genocide.
And while i still believe that nurture is more influential than nature, i've also discovered that true twins were sometimes separated at birth, raised in two different families, and ended up despite that with remarkable similarities, forcing me to conclude that there may have been more to genetics that i initially presupposed. I know that political affiliation isn't determined by genes, and yugopnik as well.
In any case, don't hate yugopnik for that while ignoring all the things he's done previously. He's on our side, remember ? Perhaps that not losing should be more of a priority that some "leftist purity".
Well, that's only my opinion, feel free to disagree 🤷