this post was submitted on 24 Mar 2026
62 points (94.3% liked)
Parenting
3325 readers
22 users here now
A place to talk about parenting.
Be respectful of others' parenting decisions.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Yeah, I'm gonna call BS. Trying to call anything "deception" by someone without a theory of mind is just nonsensical.
Children that young don't yet have the mental model to do anything like deceiving folks. They have enough trouble learning how the world works.
It’s a very similar pattern to dogs, which deceive their carers by mimicking human reactions and triggering empathy :)
I understand what you mean and for sure they don’t premeditate actions, but they do it nonetheless
Idk, IMHO, that's stretching the definition for "deception" a bit too wide.
Guess you don't have kids yet! By 18 months most kids are scooting around the house on their own two feet, but they can't talk very well. They can totally hide things if they think they're about to get told off though.
My toddler "lies" all the time, but how do you determine whether they mean to deceive or if they think they're communicating something different?
For example, if I ask "are you sleepy?" and they responded "No" when they clearly are, is it because they understand the question as "Do you want to take a nap?", or do they understand that "sleepy" refers to the physiological sensation they're currently experiencing and are lying about it to avoid having to nap?
haha yeah there are definitely gray areas! I was thinking of simpler cases, for instance you go into the kitchen where your 15 month has just run, and when they see you, they almost reflexively hide the item they've taken off the worktop behind their back.
This is what happened to me this week with my granddaughter, the item she'd taken was a banana so she wasn't about to get told off - not that I her granddad would ever tell her off for anything!
I don't think the situation you describe is any different. Do they understand that they're not allowed to have this thing regardless of whether they're seen or not? Or do they think that there's some arbitrary rule where they're allowed to have it only if they're not discovered? Do they even have a concept of what it means for something to be "allowed"?
Most toddlers can learn to sign.
Meeep, wrong. My child is older than 18 months and doesn't "deceive" me. How could they lie, if they still try to figure out that whole language business? I'm not "telling them off", though, so maybe they don't develop some kind of weird mitigation strategy.
That whole narrative reeks of that "babies are tyrants that need to be taught how to be proper people" bullshit.
And asking parents about the behaviour of their children is anything, but proper developmental science.
Sounds like your kid is an excellent liar.
Sure thing, stranger on the internet: teach me things about my toddler. /s
If this toddler is the first child, there's a whole fuck ton you don't know yet. Good luck.
Yeah, sure. I'm raising a manipulative tryant. /s Shut the fuck up, you arrogant prick.
You sound like an excellent parent.
Thanks, doing my best!
Oh I’m sure your child is a little angel that will never lie, hide things from you or do anything naughty.
Congratulations you’re the one parent in all of human history to figure it all out!
Where have I ever said anything of the sort. I said that children under a certain age lack the social understanding to be deceptive. In order to be able to deceive someone, you need a theory of mind.
It would be wonderful to see some research backing your anecdotal claim, otherwise I would simply have to assume your toddler may be experiencing delayed development
From Wikipedia:
Edit: So, modelling a wrong state of the world in other agents apparently forms at 4, according to this review:
Edit2:
But I'm sure your child was a criminal mastemind schooling your ass at chess five minutes after they enacted a cunning plan of tricking their way out of the womb. /s ... if you even have a child.
Speaking of understanding the state of information and when it became available to others, do you think the Wikipedia article might need to be updated based on new research findings?
I will wait until the research is replicated but based on my 3 year old son’s behaviour I’m going to say that yes, children start attempting to deceive before 4 years old.
He’s been hiding biscuits and other treats he knows he shouldn’t have since well before he was 2.
So maybe you’re relying on outdated information, maybe you’re biased about your own child, or maybe your child is a little delayed.
You didn't read the review I posted, did you?
Yes, of course your anecdotal evidence beats scientific consensus. Everything that's matching your preconceived beliefs is true. Everything else "needs to be replicated first". /s (even though I shared a review, not a singular study)
Occam's razor would rather suggest learned patterns (if I put these things that I like here, my parent won't shout at me), rather than consensus in developmental science being wrong.
Are you sceptical of climate change as well?
The review was from 2022. "Biased" in what way exactly (my child doesn't exhibit "deceptive behavior")? And diagnosing the children of strangers on the internet with developmental disorders (or just suggesting as such) is something only an arrogant asshole would do. Sorry, I don't make the rules.
Science and scientific consensus are not set in stone, that you continue to reject new information only demonstrates your lack of understanding of the scientific method.
You asked if I was a parent and I elaborated. I don’t require any anecdotal evidence… the research findings are literally what is being discussed here.
Clearly you can’t cope with a reality where your child would attempt to deceive you. Their teenage years are going to be rather enlightening for you.
Did I miss something? Did you actually supply any "new information", other than your anecdotal evidence?
Before you accuse me of being close-minded, you should probably supply some actual data for my mind to be open to.
Why did you supply it, then?
Adding "clearly" doesn't make any of your jumping to conclusions any less ludicrous. Stop trying to psychoanalyse strangers on the internet. That's what we here consider "dickish behaviour".
What? I said that you need a theory of mind that's advanced enough to deceive someone and that this stage of ToM comes at around four. Suggesting that I think that my child woudn't keep secrets from me as a teenager implies that I think that they'll never develop a ToM (which would be a severe mental disability). And where did I claim that?
This article isn't about teenagers, anyway.
Reading the article apparently
I read the article. That wasn't a study. That was a survey where parents self-reported for their children. Hardly a study that has any scientific merit.
Tat's part of science, too: Validate if the applied methods where actually worth anything. And aurvey of parents is not how you ro developmental science.
https://research-information.bris.ac.uk/en/publications/the-early-deception-survey-eds-its-psychometric-properties-in-chi/
I did say I’d wait for replication but it is absolutely research. Again you fail to understand the scientific method.
You fail to understand quality standards in science.