Babies learn to deceive before they can talk, new study finds | Tactics used include denial, feigning deafness, and hiding things : parenting

[–] ChristerMLB@piefed.social 13 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

I'm an ECE who's worked with toddlers for quite a while, and I have to question the methodology here.

Adults interpretations of the motivations of toddlers and babies aren't reliable enough to form the basis of such a conclusion - they are always colored by those adult's basic view of children in general, and of that specific child. E.g. I've often seen adults who've assumed that a child is feigning deafness, while the child might as well just have been very concentrated on something else.

The conclusion might be right, but they need to find a better way of studying it. I actually clicked this because I was curious about the methodology.

[–] bibbasa@piefed.social 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

damn kids

[–] jimmy90@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

see told ya kids have no morals. takes decades to learn

[–] MrSulu@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 days ago

The best go on to become political leaders

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net -3 points 2 days ago (2 children)

The study gathered insights from parents of over 750 children, aged up to 47 months, across the UK, US, Australia, and Canada, who reported on their child’s deceptive development.

Yeah, I'm gonna call BS. Trying to call anything "deception" by someone without a theory of mind is just nonsensical.

Children that young don't yet have the mental model to do anything like deceiving folks. They have enough trouble learning how the world works.

[–] Etnaphele@lemmy.world 11 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It’s a very similar pattern to dogs, which deceive their carers by mimicking human reactions and triggering empathy :)

I understand what you mean and for sure they don’t premeditate actions, but they do it nonetheless

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net -4 points 2 days ago

Idk, IMHO, that's stretching the definition for "deception" a bit too wide.

[–] rollin@piefed.social 10 points 2 days ago (3 children)

Guess you don't have kids yet! By 18 months most kids are scooting around the house on their own two feet, but they can't talk very well. They can totally hide things if they think they're about to get told off though.

[–] howrar@lemmy.ca 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

My toddler "lies" all the time, but how do you determine whether they mean to deceive or if they think they're communicating something different?

For example, if I ask "are you sleepy?" and they responded "No" when they clearly are, is it because they understand the question as "Do you want to take a nap?", or do they understand that "sleepy" refers to the physiological sensation they're currently experiencing and are lying about it to avoid having to nap?

[–] rollin@piefed.social 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

haha yeah there are definitely gray areas! I was thinking of simpler cases, for instance you go into the kitchen where your 15 month has just run, and when they see you, they almost reflexively hide the item they've taken off the worktop behind their back.

This is what happened to me this week with my granddaughter, the item she'd taken was a banana so she wasn't about to get told off - not that I her granddad would ever tell her off for anything!

[–] howrar@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 days ago

I don't think the situation you describe is any different. Do they understand that they're not allowed to have this thing regardless of whether they're seen or not? Or do they think that there's some arbitrary rule where they're allowed to have it only if they're not discovered? Do they even have a concept of what it means for something to be "allowed"?

[–] fallaciousBasis@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago

Most toddlers can learn to sign.

[+] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net -6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Guess you don't have kids yet!

Meeep, wrong. My child is older than 18 months and doesn't "deceive" me. How could they lie, if they still try to figure out that whole language business? I'm not "telling them off", though, so maybe they don't develop some kind of weird mitigation strategy.

That whole narrative reeks of that "babies are tyrants that need to be taught how to be proper people" bullshit.

And asking parents about the behaviour of their children is anything, but proper developmental science.

[–] Triumph@fedia.io 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Sounds like your kid is an excellent liar.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Sure thing, stranger on the internet: teach me things about my toddler. /s

[–] Triumph@fedia.io 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

If this toddler is the first child, there's a whole fuck ton you don't know yet. Good luck.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net -3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

Yeah, sure. I'm raising a manipulative tryant. /s Shut the fuck up, you arrogant prick.

[–] Triumph@fedia.io 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

You sound like an excellent parent.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 0 points 2 days ago

Thanks, doing my best!

[–] Cypher@aussie.zone 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Oh I’m sure your child is a little angel that will never lie, hide things from you or do anything naughty.

Congratulations you’re the one parent in all of human history to figure it all out!

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 0 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Where have I ever said anything of the sort. I said that children under a certain age lack the social understanding to be deceptive. In order to be able to deceive someone, you need a theory of mind.

[–] Cypher@aussie.zone 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It would be wonderful to see some research backing your anecdotal claim, otherwise I would simply have to assume your toddler may be experiencing delayed development

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

From Wikipedia:

While much research has been done on infants, theory of mind develops continuously throughout childhood and into late adolescence as the synapsesin the prefrontal cortex develop. The prefrontal cortex is thought to be involved in planning and decision-making. Children seem to develop theory of mind skills sequentially. The first skill to develop is the ability to recognize that others have diverse desires. Children are able to recognize that others have diverse beliefs soon after. The next skill to develop is recognizing that others have access to different knowledge bases. Finally, children are able to understand that others may have false beliefs and that others are capable of hiding emotions.

Edit: So, modelling a wrong state of the world in other agents apparently forms at 4, according to this review:

Fundamental developmental changes happen at around age 4, when new conceptual structures emerge. This ‘4 year revolution’ marks the onset of a fully fledged meta-representational ToM. In the course of this major transition, children gain the ability to succeed in a clus-ter of tasks that all require meta-representation. Among these are false-belief tasks, often considered a litmus test of mature ToM. These tasks explicitly require children to ascribe a subjective mis-representation to another agent and explain/predict their actions accordingly. In the most well known version, the child sees that another agent puts an object into one box and then the object is transferred to another box in the agent’s absence (Fig. 3a). The critical test question asked of the child is where the agent believes the object is or where the agent will search for the object39. Children younger than four systemati-cally answer incorrectly; they say that the agent thinks the object is where it really is and accordingly say that the agent will search in the second box. However, from around age 4, children succeed at the task by indicating that the agent will search in the first box.

Edit2:
But I'm sure your child was a criminal mastemind schooling your ass at chess five minutes after they enacted a cunning plan of tricking their way out of the womb. /s ... if you even have a child.

[–] Cypher@aussie.zone 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Speaking of understanding the state of information and when it became available to others, do you think the Wikipedia article might need to be updated based on new research findings?

I will wait until the research is replicated but based on my 3 year old son’s behaviour I’m going to say that yes, children start attempting to deceive before 4 years old.

He’s been hiding biscuits and other treats he knows he shouldn’t have since well before he was 2.

So maybe you’re relying on outdated information, maybe you’re biased about your own child, or maybe your child is a little delayed.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Speaking of understanding the state of information and when it became available to others, do you think the Wikipedia article might need to be updated based on new research findings?

You didn't read the review I posted, did you?

I will wait until the research is replicated but based on my 3 year old son’s behaviour I’m going to say that yes, children start attempting to deceive before 4 years old.

Yes, of course your anecdotal evidence beats scientific consensus. Everything that's matching your preconceived beliefs is true. Everything else "needs to be replicated first". /s (even though I shared a review, not a singular study)

He’s been hiding biscuits and other treats he knows he shouldn’t have since well before he was 2.

Occam's razor would rather suggest learned patterns (if I put these things that I like here, my parent won't shout at me), rather than consensus in developmental science being wrong.

Are you sceptical of climate change as well?

So maybe you’re relying on outdated information, maybe you’re biased about your own child, or maybe your child is a little delayed.

The review was from 2022. "Biased" in what way exactly (my child doesn't exhibit "deceptive behavior")? And diagnosing the children of strangers on the internet with developmental disorders (or just suggesting as such) is something only an arrogant asshole would do. Sorry, I don't make the rules.

[–] Cypher@aussie.zone 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Science and scientific consensus are not set in stone, that you continue to reject new information only demonstrates your lack of understanding of the scientific method.

You asked if I was a parent and I elaborated. I don’t require any anecdotal evidence… the research findings are literally what is being discussed here.

Clearly you can’t cope with a reality where your child would attempt to deceive you. Their teenage years are going to be rather enlightening for you.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

that you continue to reject new information only demonstrates your lack of understanding of the scientific method.

Did I miss something? Did you actually supply any "new information", other than your anecdotal evidence?

Before you accuse me of being close-minded, you should probably supply some actual data for my mind to be open to.

I don’t require any anecdotal evidence

Why did you supply it, then?

Clearly you can’t cope with a reality where your child would attempt to deceive you.

Adding "clearly" doesn't make any of your jumping to conclusions any less ludicrous. Stop trying to psychoanalyse strangers on the internet. That's what we here consider "dickish behaviour".

Their teenage years are going to be rather enlightening for you.

What? I said that you need a theory of mind that's advanced enough to deceive someone and that this stage of ToM comes at around four. Suggesting that I think that my child woudn't keep secrets from me as a teenager implies that I think that they'll never develop a ToM (which would be a severe mental disability). And where did I claim that?

This article isn't about teenagers, anyway.

[–] Cypher@aussie.zone 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Did I miss something

Reading the article apparently

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I read the article. That wasn't a study. That was a survey where parents self-reported for their children. Hardly a study that has any scientific merit.

Tat's part of science, too: Validate if the applied methods where actually worth anything. And aurvey of parents is not how you ro developmental science.

[–] Cypher@aussie.zone 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

https://research-information.bris.ac.uk/en/publications/the-early-deception-survey-eds-its-psychometric-properties-in-chi/

I did say I’d wait for replication but it is absolutely research. Again you fail to understand the scientific method.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 0 points 2 days ago

You fail to understand quality standards in science.

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