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trolley problem
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this post was submitted on 02 Nov 2023
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My only problem with this meme is that it implies that every time you eat meat you commit murder, when in reality, the horrific meat industry will continue to murder regardless of whether or not you as a single individual choose to consume it’s products. The belief that an individual decision to not eat an animal “saves” that animal is what is partially behind disgusting subversions of veganism, such as “plant-based” capitalism.
I would draw a comparison with ingredients such as palm oil. Palm oil is obtained primarily through literal slave labor, but individually purchasing palm oil products (of which make up the vast majority of products in general) does not really change anything. On the other hand, if you had a concentrated, influential movement to stop buying palm oil products, refusing to buy them could empower that movement and contribute to the end of that slavery.
But, that does not mean that veganism is an invalid movement. Far from it. It simply means that the onus to become vegan is because it empowers a social movement that can end this horrific industry, rather than because of a individualistic consumer choice.
This is why I have a hard time morally judging my friends and family for not being vegan, but are vegan myself. Veganism is a political position, and I treat it similarly to the people I care about being
. I should correct them when I can, but they are not individually terrible people for having the wrong political opinions (and, to a degree, behavior).
so much this!! it’s odd so many leftists don’t seem to understand it
Individualism is a very popular ideology that contaminates everything from our political beliefs to our subconscious moral beliefs about others
For this reason the only way we're going to get out of this mess is a technological solution (or society collapses to the point that we forget about animal husbandry)
But many vegans here have had very antisocialist views about how we must simply eat beans and need not improve food technology (re lab grown and plant meats, helping people with certain digestive disabilities) to increase adoption of veganism.
veganism is very interesting, because i thought it was more of a diet but now I see its got a political complexity akin to an actual ideology. Many different facets of the ideas. Not all are good. I can't wait until a day when we are free to experiment with and implement these ideas.
The worst fucking take is when vegans compare minority groups to animals. You can make an argument for veganism without sounding like a fucking fascist. I want to see admins start banning this fucked up behavior that apparently gets a pass.
Thats exactly what i mean. Its literally my only critique of the vegan arguments made, but no apparently animal husbandry is the same as genocide of trans people and the Atlantic slave trade. Saying otherwise makes you a reactionary, a bad faith arguer, and actually probably a wrecker.
It is literally so easy to argue veganism, why do you have to go with the ones that are heavily discriminatory against people you say you want to protect. Just drop it, its not helping anyone at all, if anything it hurts the credibility of the whole thing.
I mostly agree but think its strange to dismiss the individual part of it. Although a social movement is the goal being worked towards, I feel its a bit harmful to state the goal as 'global vegan movement' instead of 'stop exploiting animals' because that difference provides wiggle room to do harmful things if you don't expect it to affect the odds of the movement succeeding, which gets yourself thinking in unhelpful utilitarian terms. Easier to get intersectional-understanding benefits of connecting veganism to other issues, and be a better voice for that movement, when you're an abolitionist vegan who doesn't care if what you're doing might not be worthwhile according to an arbitrary metric.
The movement is of course the vitally necessary action to end the industry, but I'm also sick of carnist leftist friends excusing individual carnist actions because of it 'not really changing things', which I think is driving my thoughts here.
No, see, this is the exact mindset I dislike. There isn’t anything more I need to say because by it’s very nature, something that doesn’t affect anything doesn’t affect anything. The only reason to care about anything that doesn’t actually help stop animal suffering is out of moral fear.
The only place this argument is really relevant is are thing we can’t reliably control without lots of privilege, anyways. Everyone should be vegan. But lots of non-food products aren’t vegan because it has become heavily normalized societally, and it has gotten to the point that they are more expensive vegan than non-vegan. It doesn’t help animals to refuse to bath because one can’t afford non-vegan soap (which is almost always more expensive, unlike food).
To be clear, I think anyone should use vegan soap if they can
Edit: it’s not worth arguing with a fellow person who dislikes util*tarianism
I think I just couldn't tell if you were suggesting 'buying or not buying harmful products doesn't make a difference' to mean supporting carnist stuff is fine, cause it felt like an odd inclusion but I getcha now.
But yeah I was, in response, arguing the importance of still considering consumption habits in your veganism, which comes from my mechanistic worldview thinking that everything has an affect on something, so what should instead be the limiting factor for these decisions is stuff like privilege (instead of util priorities), which ends up at the same stance as you (I think). Anxiety over my political alienation making me min-max my veganism lol.
My beliefs boil down to: As a boycott, whether or not any one person buys animal products matters much less than if we get as many people not buying animal products as possible. Or more precisely, our goal is the total destruction or the meat industry, not just changing our consumer choices.
And, because the meat industry will continue murdering as long as we fail to destroy it, buying their products is harmful because it indicates there is still demand for their murder, not because it is murder directly in and of itself. Is there a difference? Kind of. It helps up both keep in mind that veganism is a radical movement, not a diet, and that our family members aren’t sociopaths. Or maybe I’m just coping.
That's a good summary ill have to use it