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this post was submitted on 10 Dec 2023
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Shitty that they have to bring photo ID, which poorer people disproportionately do not have.
As a non American it's kinda wild that
A: you don't need ID to vote
B: not everyone has ID, like, how do you get a bank account or drive or go to school or change a cheque or get benefits or buy beer or anything?
C: getting an ID is so difficult that requiring one is controversial.
ID is not issued by the federal government. It's typically issued at the state level. As far as the bank account goes, most poor Americans are locked out of the banking system. Many poor Americans cannot afford a car. Etc...
Here's a brief summary of the physical and financial obstacles. https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/challenge-obtaining-voter-identification
All this shit adds up. Then you have to understand the same people who have to jump through all these hoops for an ID likely have to way half a day in line to vote. The same people pushing for voter ID laws in the US are closing polling places in these people's neighborhoods to make it even more difficult. These are people who can't afford to take half a day to get ID or another half a day to wait in line to vote. Because the if they miss work they'll lose their job or be unable to make rent for the month.
People on the left are not opposed to voter ID requirements, we're opposed to implementing more burdens on people who already struggle with the logistics of voting.
Make the required identification 100% free and cover the costs of any documents and time needed to get it and I'm all for it. But barriers for legitimate voters are antidemocratic and a very dark part of US history.
ID is not required in my State. If you don't have ID, you can sign a sworn affidavit saying who you are and they have to let you vote with that.
Government needs to be able to trust the sworn statements of citizens, absent some articulable evidence why it should not be trusted. There should be no penalty for not having ID, if you don't have an ID and your affidavit is perjurious, the penalty still isn't not voting, it's a criminal charge for offering a false instrument; even if there is a state law on such ballot fraud, the penalty still isnt, like, recounting the vote and subtracting one (unless it's caught before it's certified), it's the criminal charge. Elections need to be short and sweet with a clear end result.
Some places hold a perfectly valid election and you don't even have to give your name, just show your finger, vote, and then dip your finger in a jar of ink on your way out.
Elections are not meant to be perfect and expecting perfection makes you a mark for election lies.
If voting day were a holiday it wouldn't be nearly as contraversial to require IDs, especially if ID offices were open those days.
As a non-us Citizen: why? Do you have to pay to get an ID?
In my state, it's $10 for a non-driver state issued ID card. However, the offices you need to visit in person have limited days and hours that they are open, meaning some people can't afford to take the time off of work to do so.
If for some reason they don't already have supporting identifying documents like a social security card, it could take multiple steps and visits.
Minor fees for some. It's often the paperwork, time, proof of id, and locations that become the barrier. We don't have national IDs here, but use a stupid Social Security Number that was never designed for the purpose and is literally sequential at birth. This makes proof of identity a task.
It was almost $40 just to renew my DL in my county. I swear it wasn't as much in the last county I lived in, but it was just insane.
There's usually discount programs for low-income folks, but the interesting part is needing proof of being low-income. Sometimes homeless shelters will transport people and help them fill out the paperwork and they have vouchers for the fee.
It's crazy that all of that is needed when every data broker and arm of the government knows what you had for breakfast yesterday, but you still have to jump through this many hoops yourself to get something with your name on it.
While I 100% agree with you, it's important to note that states with ID requirements typically have voter ID cards that are free.
DL fees are separate from "ID fees."
Generally, yes. And sometimes you need an address, so it's more difficult if you're homeless
Because rich people don't want to pay any taxes.
Hinest question. Without ID how do you know who they are? How do you know they haven't already voted?
The way Iowa does it, to my understanding, is they gather and a number of people speak in favor of candidates, and they take the poll live. So it’s a good evening at the polling site.
I hear that argument all the time and I don't buy it. You need photo ID to get a job, have a bank account, see a doctor, get a prescription, buy smokes/alcohol/adult video games/legal weed, drive a car, and by extension have insurance, rent a place to live, get a mortgage.
The only significantly large group who don't do any of that are the Amish.
In many states you have to present multiple forms of ID to get ID. Its a catch 22 in many places that disproportionately affects lower income people. If you lose your ID in Florida, depending on your residency status and whether the Tax Collector's office is enforcing rules, you may have to present birth certificate or a Social Security Card. To get a copy of your Social Security Card, you have to have a valid photo ID. Birth certificates require a permanent residence, access to online payment (bank account), and internet access to the right websites.
A lot of lower income people don't have mortgages, drive, see medical professionals regularly, etc. Part of that is because of the barriers to easily getting a replacement ID that exist.
I worked with these individuals for years, and the amount of burden that it put people under was immense. In just my location alone I helped hundreds of people each year navigate government systems to get ID and aid. Its laughable how hard it is for the people wbo need help to access the programs that are currently in place.
I think the main problem is that IDs accepted by banks are not always valid for voting. I remember that in some state gun permit was valid for voting but student ID wasn't. It's all designed to skew the results just so slightly. Also, 5% of Americans don't have a bank account. In close elections those numbers matter.
There's a whole bunch of comments explaining how low-income people aren't able to do those things either, especially banking, and how that adds to the cycle of poverty. For anyone actually interested in an answer about what life is like for impoverished working people in the US, I would recommend reading Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich and Evicted by Matthew Desmond. The level of poverty that exists in America generally is, and should be, shocking to the average American. I really hope the Amish comment is a joke because it's so so incredibly wrong.
And I'm saying I don't buy the argument that there is any significant number of people who want to vote, really, sincerely want to vote, but gosh darn, they just can't get ID.
In a world where you need ID to do pretty much anything.
Go read that book.
How old are you that you still get carded for cigarettes? What doctor do you go to that requires photo ID? You do not always need photo ID to rent a place. You are just making half that shit up.
Definitely concur that half that list is made-up. The key point they're missing is that nothing on that list is a right bestowed upon us. It shouldn't cost you money in order to vote in an election.
Nothing on that list is a right, but the point is you have to have photo ID to function as a basic adult in this country, forget voting. Just going into the world, having a job and a bank account requires identification.
So you want to restrict voting to those individuals who only have a job and a bank account? That sure sounds familiar. Do you also think voters should have to pass a written test before exercising their right to vote too?
No, I'm saying the number of people who a) want to vote but b) don't take part in any other sort of adult life due to not having ID is incredibly low.
Maybe you missed the everyone in the previous post. It doesn't matter if it's two people in the country (it's likely at least a million, that would be less than 0.3%), no one eligible should not be able to vote.
Okay? So once again, are you saying it doesn't matter if you discriminate against someone's rights as long as they're a minority? It's like we're reliving the 1800s-1960s with each one of your comments.
I'm not advocating for discrimination, I'm saying I doubt that there are any reasonable number of adults who want to vote but can't due to a lack of ID when you need to have ID to do literally anything else in adult society.
CmdrShepard’s argument here is important - you are looking at the burden to you, not the burden to the least capable person. Voting should be free to all. If you begin to argue that people who can’t get an ID shouldn’t vote, you should also be okay with me setting income requirements above your income for voting (I do quite well). That’s the slippery slope that people are arguing against. Everyone should be able to vote, full stop.
We already have an ID requirement, it's a signature. If your signature doesn't match, you have to correct it or your vote isn't counted.
Here, the signature used, is the one from your state drivers license or ID card...
I have been required to show a photo ID for all of those things regularly throughout my entire life. Maybe you haven’t, and maybe some people don’t, but I have in several states.
They have asked for your photo ID when going to the doctor every time? I have never had that happen. They ask for my insurance card when I have never been to them before. I honestly do not even think I have showed photo ID then except for when I was in college and they asked for my university ID.
As for things like cigarettes or booze, they really card people who are clearly like 60 where you are?
Yes at the doctor’s office. As for cigarettes and booze, I’m in my 40s, so it not every time, but it still happens often.
I don't smoke, but I stand behind people in line getting carded ALL THE TIME.
And I stand behind people who do not get carded for buying alcohol all the time. You only have to card someone if they look under 39.5 which is a pretty subjective measure (and a weird number to settle on) according to the signs posted at registers. So it's almost like different places have different policies. Poorer areas like where I live tend to take the risk of carding less often.
I got carded trying to order a beer at a restaurant a couple of years ago.
Apparently my long grey beard wasn't enough of an indication that I might be older than 21.
Bs
I own a place that I rent out. You want to rent from me. You need an Id so I can check your background. No id? Hit the road.
The fact your believe your personal view is the whole argument says quite a lot.
Their perspective of life is the only one that's real or matters. Didn't you know that?
Good for you? Are you the center of the fucking universe that dictates rules for everything? No? Then maybe that isn't the case for everyone, dingus.
Where did I say it was the case for everyone?
You were the one who made the claim that he didn't need an id to rent. I'm simply showing you that isn't necessarily true. And no where did I even come close to saying I make the rules for everyone. Again I'm simply showing you that you were wrong in your claim.
Dingus
None of the things you just said are, or even should be, prerequisites to vote.
No, they are pre-requisites to be an adult in America.