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submitted 1 month ago by mozz@mbin.grits.dev to c/politics@lemmy.world

I normally don't even want to get involved in posting a drumbeat of "here's something about Biden staying in the race" stories because, (1) I'm not sure he should, and (2) it doesn't "cancel out" the waste of time that is the incessant drumbeat of articles about how he should drop out. It's like taking uppers to counteract downers; it just doesn't work that way, it makes everything worse. And the amount of press this whole thing is getting and the way it's being presented is absolutely fuckin absurd.

But that being said, I want to post this one because I like Elizabeth Warren quite a lot and I think what she says gets to the core of the issue.

Also, if you are a Democratic politician or donor and you want to replace Biden with someone else, surely talking to the press about how he should drop out without anyone in particular in mind that you're talking to them about as a replacement, and a strategy to get that person into place, should be an absolute last, last, last resort for a way to get that done. And probably not even then.

Biden's thing of "If you want to replace me then mount a challenge at the convention, that's what it's for, and whoever wins, let's fuckin fight the real enemy" makes quite a bit of sense to me, and the longer this goes on, the less sense the people who are talking to the press about him dropping out make.

So here you go, here's a story about someone who thinks he should stay in and what she has to say.

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[-] Pronell@lemmy.world 45 points 1 month ago

It's all felt like external pressure to me. Trump's team knows it's hard for him to beat Biden, so it's all about undermining him in any way they can.

He's old, feeble, sundowning, has Parkinson's, has cancer, constantly forgetting things.

And in the debate? He answered every question in detail and got like two details wrong, while his opponent doubled down on comments that have gotten him impeached and in legal trouble.

But no, let's talk about the stuttering man who was a little hoarse, and demand his replacement with nobody. After all, they don't want to push a narrative that defines the replacement candidate, this is all about undermining the opposition.

And if you, reader, think you're in the crowd of amplifying that, fuck you.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 27 points 1 month ago

If replacing Biden was the answer to all the Democrats’ problems, all the papers like the NYT that are openly hostile to the Democrats winning the election wouldn’t be pushing it so hard.

It’s not quite that simple, of course. They are not “pushing” it in the sense of sincerely advocating a particular course of action that is realistic, and interviewing the people who are trying to implement that plan of action, as they would if they were sympathetic to the Democrats’ efforts to stop a real fascist dictatorship to come to life in the US, and trying to report on that genuine strategic effort maybe with a little bit of partisan hope that it would work.

They’re just very convincingly imitating this whole panicked concern trolling freak out, to hurt Biden, for reasons of their own. That doesn’t mean he isn’t old as fuck or that that’s not a problem. It could be that going through the total clusterfuck of replacing him as a candidate 4 months before the election might be worth the risk and we’d come into smoother waters successfully before November.

But they’re recommending it with such a shouting in everyone’s face level of forcefulness and repetition and without any particular plan to substitute for him, because they know it will hurt his chances if he stays in, and that replacing him at this point will be a clusterfuck. Not because they sincerely believe it will help. And the Democrats who are buying into and amplifying the strategy free panicked shouting version of it should be ashamed of themselves.

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[-] njm1314@lemmy.world 24 points 1 month ago

It's amazing how nobody notices that all the Senators and Congress people that support the working class are for Biden staying in. All the big wealthy plutocrats on the other hand want him out.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 15 points 1 month ago

What, you mean you aren’t deeply concerned about what all the wealthy DNC donors want to have happen? Those guys have always had our backs.

[-] cyd@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

That's just political machines doing their thing. It's the same dynamic as the Soviet Politburo propping up Brezhnev long after he'd started drooling on himself on TV.

[-] ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

Don’t blame progressives for any of this shit. The left wanted Biden to not run or have a primary challenger. Now it’s all centrists leaking shit to the New York Times, which is still churning out so many articles about the debate that I have to scroll down to see literally any other news. Whole UK and French elections happened and they’re still giving it top billing.

[-] cyd@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

The Biden stay/go camps don't divide neatly by left/right. Progressives and neoliberals both want Joe gone; the ones sticking with him, or at least the ones he's appealing to for support, are the unions and the black caucus, which you can think of as the political machine wing of the Democratic party.

[-] ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

Progressives aren’t doing shit right now. Bernie and AOC have said they’ll support Biden. This is a rat fucking from the establishment, not the left. The NY Times hasn’t published 400^1^ articles about this because the left wants it.

^1^ Someone counted 192 several days ago and it’s been more days. I used 400 as hyperbole but it might not be.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 0 points 1 month ago

Poster X: I am super left!

Poster X: Coincidentally I have the exact same strategy recommendations as the New York Times!

Poster Y: Hey you know Bernie Sanders actually doesn’t agree with you

Poster X: He’s just not left enough! Here are some wealthy DNC donors who agree with me!

Poster Y:

Poster X: I think people on the left should not vote! I am super left!

[-] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

Poster X is constructed entirely from straw.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 0 points 1 month ago

Constructed entirely from something, at least

[-] Zaktor@sopuli.xyz 4 points 1 month ago

the black caucus

Really? Jim Clyburn has been damning Biden with faint praise, and openly talked about how a replacement should work.

[-] cyd@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

The Biden campaign's made a big deal out of how no CBC member has openly called for him to step down so far, and they're actively lobbying them to that end. That's also why he visited a black church over the weekend in one of his rare bits of campaigning. The calculation is that if all black lawmakers stay the course, the effort to replace Biden can be tarred as racist.

[-] Zaktor@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 month ago

The Biden campaign’s made a big deal out of how no CBC member has openly called for him to step down so far

Hah, right now there's only like six people who have called for that, so that's not particularly noteworthy. I'm amazed that article about CBC opinions didn't mention Clyburn at all. Like he's kind of an important member who's been making plenty of statements about the issue.

[-] cyd@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Clyburn's comments were intended to lay out a marker. He was signaling that if Biden steps down and the nomination doesn't go to Harris, he'll burn the outfit to the ground.

I don't think the election against Trump is the primary factor for him; he's simply maneuvering to maximize the tactical influence of the CBC, no matter the outcome. If Biden remains, he will be even more indebted to the CBC than he already was.

[-] Zaktor@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 month ago

He said more. It wasn't just warning off Harris challengers: Clyburn says he would support ‘mini-primary’ ahead of DNC if Biden steps aside

It's all hypothetical, but if the message he wanted to convey was "Biden should be the nominee and we should put this behind us", he wouldn't be answering all these questions. If people wanted to give that message, they'd just say it.

[-] cyd@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

Thanks, I hadn't seen those latest comments from Clyburn.

Now I have no idea what his position actually is, haha.

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[-] seathru 12 points 1 month ago

But what does Jimmy Carter have to say?

Decisions like these can't be trusted to young'uns.

[-] Rottcodd@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Also, if you are a Democratic politician or donor and you want to replace Biden with someone else, surely talking to the press about how he should drop out without anyone in particular in mind that you’re talking to them about as a replacement, and a strategy to get that person into place, should be an absolute last, last, last resort for a way to get that done. And probably not even then.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

I think that the winning strategy, rather obviously, is to throw the nomination entirely open and let it work itself out. The exact thing that's going to inspire the sort of enthusiasm that will steamroll Trump is a very public process by which a nominee is legitimately chosen.

Coming into it with some prepared scheme by which to hopefully force the nomination of a particular candidate is just duplicating the mistakes the DNC made in 2016 and 2020, and it's all too likely to just end us up right back where we were before the debate - with a disappointed and frustrated base that has to be guilt-tripped into voting for a candidate in whom they don't believe solely on the strength of them being not-Trump.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Some version of that sounds pretty good, yes. I do think there’s a legitimate conversation to be had about what candidate would be best instead of just “fuck you it’s Biden,” even though the time is pretty fuckin tight at this point. As Biden pointed out, the convention is where that can happen, which would give people time to organize a competitor candidate or two and get their ducks in a row for how to run their challenger.

Since Biden is such an objectively weak candidate that no one supports him anymore and he can’t even put a sentence together, that should be easy to do. Right?

What I, and I think Warren, are objecting to, is the stupid idea that Biden should just respond to the obvious conservative-media thirst for the idea of him dropping out, and play into the Republicans’ hands, and hope that the DNC can come through in a clutch and come up with an alternate plan from scratch without tripping over their dicks and falling down at the critical moment as they are wont to often do.

[-] Rottcodd@lemmy.world -2 points 1 month ago

the obvious conservative-media thirst for the idea of him dropping out

I see no reason to believe that the conservatives want him to drop out, and many reasons to believe they want him to stay in.

There's absolutely no question that they're outnumbered. With a fully engaged voting public, they can't possibly win. Their only hope is to prevent as many people as possible from voting, and discourage as many more as possible.

Additionally, they've spent the last four years flogging the "Biden crime family" narrative, so all they have to do against Biden is stay the course. A new candidate would need an entirely new set of oppositional propaganda, and they wouldn't have much time in which to get it to take root.

I would think that pretty much the last thing in the world they'd want would be for the Democrats to make an 11th hour switch to an entirely different candidate, and quite possibly a candidate who will inspire the sort of enthusiasm Biden's candidacy is sorely lacking.

and hope that the DNC can come through in a clutch and come up with an alternate plan from scratch without tripping over their dicks and falling down as they are wont to often do.

Now that I agree with pretty much entirely, with only the proviso that, Hanlon's Razor notwithstanding, I tend to ascribe their failures more to malice than incompetence (though it could be argued that since it appears to boil down to stultifyingly shallow self-interest, it could qualify as just a different sort of incompetence).

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 4 points 1 month ago

I see no reason to believe that the conservatives want him to drop out, and many reasons to believe they want him to stay in.

They sure as fuck have a funny way of showing it

I am referring to the New York Times and CBS News and whatever other crap here, as conservative media. Not the modern meaning of conservative, i.e. Nazi, like Fox News or Newsmax. I'm not sure what they are saying about Biden needing to drop out but I am assuming they are also talking about it, with much of the same self-fulfilling prophecy aspect about it.

I would think that pretty much the last thing in the world they'd want would be for the Democrats to make an 11th hour switch to an entirely different candidate, and quite possibly a candidate who will inspire the sort of enthusiasm Biden's candidacy is sorely lacking.

My god dude

The enthusiasm you are perceiving or not perceiving is purely media created. You are consuming some made up bullshit and imagining that it corresponds to reality, and that the media will suddenly be excited about this new candidate. They will not. They will find problems with the new candidate just as genuine as Biden's fuckup of a debate, and if you start wringing your hands at that point about what a big deal it is and how maybe now we need a new candidate that people can get some enthusiasm about, the people that bankroll the media that gave you that idea will laugh and laugh, with pure contempt for you, and with a certain quiet conviction of the sureness of their victory.

[-] doctordevice@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 month ago

As a progressive, it's so fuckin' funny to me to see liberals complain about media bias. With the amount of vitriol y'all spread every time we point that out, you should probably find a different tactic if you want sympathy from your left.

And also: I don't need the media to tell me how uninspiring Biden is to people who think like me. Voting for Hillary in the 2016 general made me feel physically ill and still somehow Biden this election is less inspiring than she was. I'm mainly just exhausted from having bland centrist elites handpicked to be the only choice on my ballot.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Voting for Hillary in the 2016 general made me feel physically ill and still somehow Biden this election is less inspiring than she was.

Hey, funny story. So I was talking to this guy the other day on here, and he was so upset about how the Democratic Party had shifted to the right. And he was talking about during the Bill Clinton years, how he and all his progressive / activist friends were so happy about how Clinton balanced the budget, and how great it was to get a young guy like Clinton in the White House, and it was a shame that his legacy got tarnished when Obama and then Biden came in.

And so I was thinking back on like all the activist people I knew in the 90s and how they felt about Clinton and the fuckin balanced budget alongside the WTO and prison population and bombing in Serbia and welfare to work and all that fun stuff, and then contrasting that with how they felt when Obama got elected. And I was like damn, that guy’s story that just happens to match a particular narrative that would be convenient if you wanted to shit on the Democrats sure matches up exactly with how I remember it. Like to a T.

Anyway. I just thought of that story. What was your favorite way Hillary Clinton was better than Biden? What did you miss about her platform, as bad as it was, that Biden managed to make even worse? I am curious.

[-] doctordevice@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 month ago

I actually have no clue what point you were trying to make in the first two paragraphs.

Frankly, I see no perceptible difference in platform between the two of them. The main difference in terms of election enthusiasm is the burden of history. This is now the third "most important election of our lifetime" facing the same boogeyman (that I do want to keep out of the White House, to be clear). In the meantime I've faced 8 years of the Democratic Party blaming me for 2016 even though I voted for their illegitimate candidate, saying my political group isn't large enough to be listened to (simultaneous with being large enough to lose the election???), and refusing to take responsibility for any of their actions that have landed us here.

They propped up Trump as a pied piper, ignored progressives and polls warning them Hillary would lose, and started a pre-emptive smear campaign to blame progressives for the loss. Now, they are still contending with the man they propped up, are once again ignoring polls, and I already see the groundwork for blaming this on progressives. So I'm less enthusiastic because I've heard this song before and I dislike it just as much as the first time.

My vote doesn't even matter since I'm not in a battleground state. Only my state and local elections will matter. But I'm gonna get blamed for his inevitable loss anyway. I'm just so tired of it.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 1 points 1 month ago

I actually have no clue what point you were trying to make in the first two paragraphs.

I believe that you do not, yes. Read it again and think about what I’m saying a little bit deeper.

The main difference in terms of election enthusiasm is the burden of history.

They propped up Trump as a pied piper, ignored progressives and polls warning them Hillary would lose, and started a pre-emptive smear campaign to blame progressives for the loss. Now, they are still contending with the man they propped up, are once again ignoring polls, and I already see the groundwork for blaming this on progressives. So I'm less enthusiastic because I've heard this song before and I dislike it just as much as the first time.

Yeah, this stuff is totally how I look at the election, too. Just how I emotionally feel about it, and whether I’m “enthusiastic”, and nothing about platforms, and talking about all the bad things about Hillary as the reasons why I don’t like Biden.

[-] doctordevice@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I think I'm missing some context for what the left wing opinion was at the time considering I was born a few months into Clinton's first term. Looking back, I can't see him as progressive at all. I see Clinton as a catalyst of the party's most recent shift to the right. My first presidential election was Obama's reelection, which was fine but not very inspiring to vote for someone you were excited about 4 years ago when you couldn't vote and starting to wonder when he was going to... uh... do anything.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I don't dislike Biden because of the things I disliked about Hillary. I dislike Biden because he fits the same bill she did. I don't like a moderate "incremental change" platform because that's been the MO for a long while now and it clearly only lets the Republicans drag us right. I don't like the lip service from the Democrats with no follow through time after time after time. I don't like being told over and over that I have to be happy we have the "most progressive president ever" when half the things that are claimed about him are drops in the bucket when we need a faucet turned on.

I saw an administration holding student loan debt like a knife over people like me burdened with debt to milk extra votes out of us before proceeding to do very little about it and acting like they fixed the problem. I saw an administration do absolutely nothing to progress universal health care. Not even a plan. I recognize they don't have the congressional votes for it now. But come up with a fucking plan to inspire us to vote for you so we know if we give you a mandate you'll follow through. Instead, all we have to rely on is history which shows us the Democrats will implement a watered down, heavily means-tested version of whatever they do. Which means someone like me who makes over their threshold because I'm in one of the highest cost of living cities gets no help even though I'm barely treading water financially due to the yoke of student debt and goddamn groceries that cost over twice what they did 5 years ago. Meanwhile I haven't been to a doctor in 10 years because I can't afford whatever they're going to tell me is wrong with me.

[-] Rottcodd@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

You're arguing with a figment of your imagination.

If you have any interest in actually discussing/debating with me rather than the caricature in your mind, let me know.

[-] dudinax@programming.dev 6 points 1 month ago

AOC and Warren are right at the top of national politicians I admire. If they support Biden that's good enough for me.

[-] TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

It’s like taking uppers to counteract downers; it just doesn’t work that way, it makes everything worse.

[-] Zaktor@sopuli.xyz 4 points 1 month ago

Asked by The Boston Globe if Biden should stay in the race, the Massachusetts Democrat said, “President Biden is our nominee. He is an excellent president. He works hard on behalf of working families every day.”

This is the entire statement from the article. This isn't a "should stay in the race" statement. It's "I'm not going to answer that".

Also, if you are a Democratic politician or donor and you want to replace Biden with someone else, surely talking to the press about how he should drop out without anyone in particular in mind that you’re talking to them about as a replacement, and a strategy to get that person into place, should be an absolute last, last, last resort for a way to get that done.

This is just wrong. "Should we replace Biden" is an entirely separate question from "who should replace him". And if someone named a specific name, the Biden-stans would attack them for trying to promote their own pick, or worse start attacking the pick themselves.

And we're rapidly approaching the last resort of public pressure campaigns. The "give him time and let him step down on his own terms" strategy doesn't look like it's going to work.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 12 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I think what Biden said was pretty spot on: If you don’t want me as the nominee, figure out a plan and mount a challenge at the convention. If I’m a weak candidate then beat me at the convention. But if you show up at the convention just standing there with nothing but your little sign that says “BUT HE’S OLLLLLLLD” then I hope you won’t mind if I don’t take you seriously, and run for president anyway, and in fact I would hope that in that case you’d be able to admit you don’t have anything better to offer and willing to vote for me so we don’t get Project 2025 instead.

To me, that sounds pretty fair.

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this post was submitted on 08 Jul 2024
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