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Outcry over official Spanish definition of Jew as ‘greedy or usurious’ person (www.timesofisrael.com)

submitted 11 months ago by alphacyberranger@sh.itjust.works to c/world@lemmy.world

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[-] ominouslemon@lemm.ee 69 points 11 months ago

If people still use it that way, it should be in the dictionary. Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive

[-] Mothra@mander.xyz 37 points 11 months ago

This, especially since dictionaries (at least Spanish ones) have a lot of abbreviations to indicate when a term is archaic, deprecated, rude, etc. Even if nobody uses it in such way today, considering it was used not so long ago, it should remain. It's history and evidence of the discrimination, I get that it's offensive but erasing it from the dictionary doesn't do anything for their cause.

[-] sik0fewl@kbin.social 23 points 11 months ago

Here's the definition:

adj. despect. Dicho de una persona: Avariciosa o usurera. U. t. c. s.

"despect." is despectivo, which means "pejorative" or "derogatory". Also, it's the last definition given, not the first.

[-] driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br 1 points 11 months ago

What U. t. c. s. Means ?

[-] orosus@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

U. t. c. s. stands for: "usese también como sustantivo" which means: "it can be used as a substantive/noun"

[-] Cabrio@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

[removed by mod]

[-] funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Fairy is a homophobic term. You may think it's acceptable, but I've lived through homophobic abuse, so have many others but there is a very good reason I'm offended by the term.

Homophobia has no place in modern society, and no amount of nihilistic sophistry will change my mind.

I so I will be offended by you calling me a fairy, fag/faggot, shirt lifter, battyboy, fudgepacker...

I'm two generations removed and on the wrong side of the family try to be considered jewish, but close enough that some living relatives are practicing Jews. I will also take offense at you using the word Jew and you using it in the way the post intends.

Not because I'm a sissy fairy fag cocksucker, which I am, but because I'm big enough and ugly enough to tell you to go fuck yourself with your pseduo-intellectual circumlocution.

You say yourself, "it's not the word but how you use it" and then go on to use it as an epithet. There is nothing wrong with using the word fairy to describe Tinkerbell, or the mascot of absinthe, but when you proudly use it as an insult you're being a hypocrite, you are using it exactly in an offensive way.

[-] Cabrio@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

[removed by mod]

[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 3 points 11 months ago

German gays call use the term "Tunte" quite a bit, somewhere in between "faggot" and "fruit". And yes they mean it as an insult -- not for being gay, but for sticking out your little finger when drinking prosecco, approximately. The polar opposite of flannel shirt.

[-] funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works -4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I am one of the dozens of people in the world who wasn't educated in America, so you know what they say about assuming.

Your first paragraph repeats my point so I'm glad we agree, and your second paragraph also mostly agrees with me. What I would say you haven't understood is that you said you call people fairies, and indeed "r/tards", in an offensive manner and demand we're not offended. You can't police other people's reactions. What's the difference from saying "ah yes, but when I rob a bank it shouldn't be illegal because I'm special!"

I see your point - again - about how it's the usage - yes, but I'll say, also again, that my issue is with your usage.

It's ironic you would complain about my education and accuse me of missing the point when it's your comprehension that's at issue here.

Finally, I'd like you to explain how "r/tard" can be used in a non-offensice context.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Finally, I'd like you to explain how "r/tard" can be used in a non-offensice context.

"This new extinguisher excells at retarding a fire."

"The silencer retarded the sound of the firearm."

Its pretty damn easy to use words inoffensively if you know the definition of them. Retarded isn't just a description of the mentally handicapped; it means to be held back, slowed down, or restrained.

[-] funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works -1 points 11 months ago

and which one of these did the OP mean by "is fucking r/tarded?"

[-] Cabrio@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

I answered that for you 3 hours ago, now you're just being belligerent.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 1 points 11 months ago

Both examples are used in the same way OP was using them. Do you have an issue with reading comprehension?

[-] keefshape@lemmy.world -5 points 11 months ago

Wow. You did yourself a real service with this post. I applaud.

👏

[-] Cabrio@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

If you still don't get it let me know what you don't understand and I'll bust out the crayons and we can get to figuring out which ones you like the taste of. (Clue: This is offensive but uses no offensive words, because context)

[-] CantSt0pPoppin@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago

Do you apply this logic to racial slurs as well?

[-] Cabrio@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Yes. We can talk about racial slurs without directing them at anyone. We can talk about the history and origin or racial slurs like spic and wog and (dare I say it in the hopes that people actually understand my point) removed. (edit: Lol, fuck censorship, but this helps prove my point below because you don't even need to see the word but you know what it was and what it represents due to context)

We can talk about these words, the concepts and hate they represent, the pain they are meant to inflict and all of that context without being offensive or using those words in an offensive manner.

Here's a little secret to offensive words, you can make any word offensive because as stated in my previous comment, it's not the word itself that's offensive it's the intent it's used with.

Fairy princess is offensive if it's used to derogatively represent someone, and endearing when your 3 year old daughter wants to be one. Does that mean 'fairy princess' is a slur? Yes, but only when it's used that way.

The difference that racial slurs have over other offensive language is that they are specifically created words for being derogative, unlike other derogative speech which reappropriates existing words and medical terms as insulting metaphor. But even then you can talk about racial slurs without being offensive as previously explained. Like we're doing right now.

Ask yourself, is there anything in this comment you find "offensive"? Or maybe offensive words just make you uncomfortable. I'm comfortable around offensive language because I understand it and can recognise the difference between objective use of language and directed insults.

[-] CantSt0pPoppin@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago

Hey, I took some time to see things from your perspective, but I need to make something very clear.

We have a firm policy against racial slurs, even when discussing them. This is because these words are weaponized to dehumanize people and create a sense that some people are not equal to others. This also includes when they are not used with malicious intent. We want to create a space where everyone feels safe and respected, and that includes avoiding the use of racial slurs at all times under any circumstance.

If you want to talk about racial slurs, you must self-censor and avoid using these words. If you do not, your comments will be removed. If you are unable to abide by the rules on the sidebar, then let us know.

I've heard this argument more times than I would like to admit. The idea that people who are uncomfortable with offensive language are simply uncomfortable with themselves is a blunt and overplayed strawman.

Your arguments are ones of bad faith. For example, the word "f**ry princess" may not be offensive when used to describe a young girl who wants to be one. However, you, I, and everyone reading this very well knows it is used to belittle women and LGBTQ+ people alike. By your logic, you are clearly ignoring the fact that language can be harmful even when it is not intended to.

The same is true for racial slurs. These words were created to dehumanize and denigrate people of color. Even when they are not used with malicious intent, they can still be harmful because they can trigger generational trauma and pain. If that was not the case, people who use the word would not still use the very word that was used while black men, women, and children met their ends hanging from a tree.

I honestly don't think you are frustrated but just pandering to justify the use of hateful language. I could be wrong however it makes no difference.

Please remember as I stated in the beginning:

Such language will not be tolerated under any circumstances and will be promptly removed. It is important to remember that these words have a real and harmful impact on people. We want to create a space where everyone feels safe and respected, and that includes avoiding the use of racial slurs.

[-] Cabrio@lemmy.world -4 points 11 months ago

This is language theory not pandering or looking to excuse the use of deliberately discriminatory language or racial epithets, but a master class on understanding the nuance between offensive language and inoffensive language and the damage that disingenuously taking offense at inoffensive language does in stifling legitimate discussion of the topics and the disingenuous censorship of legitimate inoffensive language at the behest of a failed education system.

Case in point.

[-] CantSt0pPoppin@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

You're clearly not qualified to be giving any type of "master class" on anything. Your comments are:

Harmful
Offensive
In bad faith

You are clearly unwilling to contribute to a productive discussion that follows the community guidelines. If you want to have a legitimate discussion about the topics, then you need to start by being respectful of others. That means abiding by the community guidelines. If you can't do that, then I suggest you find a different forum to participate in."

[-] Whitehat93875@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

Just a heads up, this person is a known troll across lemmy they're well known for their hostile and inflammatory content and just saying things to get a rise out of people, this person also isn't exactly receptive to feedback. Just wanted to let you know since trying to talk with someone like this is like talking to a brick wall.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net -1 points 11 months ago

Yes. The way people generally use the N word with an A at the end is often used in a non-racist way.

[-] CantSt0pPoppin@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

The word is ugly with and without the "a". It is a word that was used to terrorize enslaved people and is still used to this day to dehumanize black people. Anyone especially black people should not be using that word.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

It's still a word like any other. How it is used is what matters, not the word itself; and saying black people should also not use that word is pretty racist, unless you're also black...

Also looking at the decimation of the comments in here, the mods and users are overly sensitive over words. Fucking pathetic.

[-] CantSt0pPoppin@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago

I'm black and I don't use the n-word. It's a word of hate and oppression, and I don't want to be associated with it. I don't think it's possible to "repurpose" the word, and it should be buried in the footnotes of history. That being said there is a side bar with clear rules if you have any difficulty abiding by them please let us know.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Please; tell me what rules were violated with the comments that were removed, other than you disagreed with the opinions expressed. It's also a shame you're a mod when you had such a hard time even understanding simple definitions.

[-] azvasKvklenko@sh.itjust.works 12 points 11 months ago

It's like in Polish - the word "żyd" (jew) has negative connotations, and maybe it becomes rare in usage these days, but the negative meaning sticks. It's still an offense to call somebody that.

We have more words like this (cygan, rumun) that on its own are official words for etnicity or nationality, but carry some negative meaning. We also have dedicated words to call many different groups in offensive ways.

However languages happen organically and they reflect how people speak, not the other way that there's some sort of entity that dictates how the entire population should speak (although reformations are possible).

Funny how people try to regulate that by law. We had such case in Polish when few years ago feminists tried to change how we call professions that are typically assigned with men, but some women are also performing them (police officer, firefigter, ministry etc). Some of those forms didn't make sense completely due to semantics, some were dropped from the language decades ago and sound archaic or unnatural, the lobby lead to memes at the very most.

[-] AstridWipenaugh@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

That movement worked though. You wrote police officer and firefighter instead of policeman and fireman.

[-] Cabrio@lemmy.world -3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Fireman and policeman in English are also not offensive because they aren't referring to gender or sex.

Human - Group
Humans - Collective Individuals
Man - Individual
Men - Collective Individuals (Non-sexed)

Not to be conflated with

Men - Collective (Sex Male)
Women - Collective (Sex Female)
Wo - Female, men - collective individuals (non-sexed).

Keep in mind these are all traditional definitions and were constructed before sex and gender were determined to be separate and before intersex was a classification.

We now often conflate those in common English with human and man and person being interchangeable. As man (individual) with man (sex). And many others conflate sex and gender.

Firefighters - Group
Fireman - Firefighting Individual
Firemen - Firefighting Collective (Non-sexed)

Police - Group
Policeman - Policing Individual
Policemen - Policing Collective (Non-sexed)

The arguments for removing gender from professions is based on the misapprehension that the professions were ever related to gender and as a result mass illiteracy has made it an "issue".

[-] Railcar8095@lemm.ee 9 points 11 months ago

Wait until they realise a female Jew is a bean

[-] Badass_panda@lemmy.world 9 points 11 months ago

I'm saddened to hear that there are still an appreciable amount of Spanish people talking about us that way, but I'm not upset at the dictionary for recording the way the language is used.

I'm guessing it's approached in something of a similar way to how English language dictionaries handle the word gyp, which is to give its definition and note that it is offensive.

[-] cosmic_skillet@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago

Exactly, dictionary definitions are descriptive, not prescriptive. They describe how words are used, not prescribe how they should be used.

this post was submitted on 09 Sep 2023

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