this post was submitted on 13 Jul 2025
49 points (100.0% liked)

Comradeship // Freechat

2445 readers
123 users here now

Talk about whatever, respecting the rules established by Lemmygrad. Failing to comply with the rules will grant you a few warnings, insisting on breaking them will grant you a beautiful shiny banwall.

A community for comrades to chat and talk about whatever doesn't fit other communities

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
 

My partner has been onboard the K-pop train for several years. As much as they enjoy their groups, we've discussed several aspects that are connected to the global American capitalist hegemony. Keep in mind that these are two people's experiences rather than a scientific consensus.

The List

  1. As K-pop has become more mainstream, songs have begun to incorporate more and more non-Korean lyrics, particularly English.

    The K-pop industry is large enough such that it attracts international artists, almost all of whom appear Eastern/SE Asian. Exo from the 2010's is one group who had eight South Korean and eight Chinese members, and they released songs in Korean, Mandarin, and Japanese. (Exo slowly lost its Chinese members due to mistreatment, but that's a different story).

    Nevertheless, Exo is more of the exception. Many groups sing exclusively in Korean and English. And whereas in the past, Korean would be the predominant lyrics with a sprinkle of English, many newer songs are the exact opposite with Korean as the minority.[^1] Perhaps this is the price paid for going global.

 

  1. Girl groups in k-pop face very different treatment from boy groups.

    My impression of the industry is that "typical" K-pop idols start training young, break out as part of a boy/girl group, and finally dive into a solo careers as singers, actors, etc. Not everyone makes it past each step, and some idols come from other media industries.

    Girl groups deal with additional complications. Several girl groups have debuted with minors amongst their members[^2], and they have been getting progressively younger. When you consider that idols train can train for several years, this means a 16-year old member probably starting training at 13-14 years old.

    In addition, girl groups are generally shorter lived than boy groups. A large part of the blame goes to the record labels. A new girl group may debut with a label, and they'll get all the attention, publicity, and studio backing they could ask for. A couple years later, a new girl group will debut with the same label, and the previous one will be neglected. I've been told that girl groups live and die by what is trendy in the moment, and this constant churn is one way to chase it.

    Generally speaking, boy groups do not face those same pressures.

 

  1. Sexualization of idols

    Sexualization of K-pop idols exists. It's a thing. It exists among both girl groups and boy groups, but in different ways. Girl groups face the more well known sexualization we see in our society. Boy groups face aggressive homoerotic 'shipping' among their fans.

    In fact, the industry plays into it. One of the common stipulations in an idol's contract is that they will neither date nor enter romantic relationships for a period of time. This can range from a few years to the length of their contract. The implication being that the idols are single and available for you, the consumer. Coupled with the number of underage idols and prevalence of Asian fetishization in the West, this sexualization is particularly gross.

Conclusion

Next time someone speaks about the cultural exports of K-pop, you can ask "but at what cost??" and mention the above.

[^1]: For example, As If It's Your Last by Blackpink in 2017 vs. Shutdown in 2022

[^2]: For example, Ive debuted in 2021, which means Wonyoung and Liz were 17, and Leeseo was 15. Similarly, NewJeans debuted in 2022. Their youngest member, Hyein, was 14.#

all 33 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] klepti@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I would really love to see the kpop industry with a worker owned or generally post capitalist system, i mean it would be fascinating to see how much idols would change if they actually had rights

[–] Conselheiro@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 20 hours ago (2 children)

Here.

Jokes aside, CPop does exist and could be studied comparatively. I have no idea if it's actually any better there, but could be an interesting topic for Marxists who like that style of music, in both its merits and deficiencies.

[–] klepti@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 18 hours ago

i honestly prefer jpop because of this, i feel like the industry isnt 'as' bad, but still horrible, i mean i literally lovelovelove nearly all jpop music but dont enjoy the large majority of kpop, idk how that correlates but still lmao

[–] TankieReplyBot@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:

[–] klepti@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 18 hours ago

oooo nice thank you bot !!!!!!!!!! im thinking of archiving all the recorded dprk media, or atleast the music

[–] big_spoon@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 day ago

i'm not an expert, but pop scene in the worst korea is basically an extreme version of the boy bands like n'sync that were so popular in the 90's...and girl bands are basically a super-extreme toxic version of japanese idols.

lots of pedophilia

lots of talent abuse

lots of capitalist exploitation

[–] ivy@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 1 day ago

Kids also drop out of school to be a trainee. For some of them, kindergarten is the highest level of education.

[–] Conselheiro@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 1 day ago

Honestly found this post rather tame. I've heard many horror stories from friends who are into K-Pop about how mistreated the artists are, specially the ones that don't get successful and flop. Stuff like getting into horrible debt, being stuck to label but unable to record or sing anymore, and having to right to one's own life.

It always seemed like the terrible state of the US pop music entertainment industry we always knew was horrible (even Nickelodeon did a parody of it with Big Time Rush), but on steroids.

Sadly, I never got interested enough to thoroughly understand and critique it, but what you're describing is too tame even for the US pop industry that churned out Hannah Montana and Ariana Grande through years of child abuse. It's actually much much worse than that.

[–] WaterBowlSlime@lemmygrad.ml 19 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Don't forget the abuse committed by the kpop idols themselves. Look up the burning sun scandal. A ton of the Korean upper class got caught sex trafficking and date raping women at a big nightclub a few years ago. South Korea's entertainment industry is pretty much the same as America's.

[–] TechnoMaoist@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 2 days ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I think RoK overall faces a lot of horrible misogyny. For the Burning Suns scandal, some of those idols have been convicted, and they got off relatively light IMO. Seungri ended up pleading guilty to all charges in exchange for 18 months in prison.

In addition, I've heard anecdotes from South Korean friends who say that the men are incredibly pushy, won't say no, etc. Also, the beauty standards are something else. Plastic surgery is very common. Women are expected to wear make-up in public. Even my Korean friend who never wears make-up in the US would go through the effort every day when they were visiting.

[–] GreatSquare@lemmygrad.ml -1 points 2 days ago (2 children)

In addition, I’ve heard anecdotes from South Korean friends who say that the men are incredibly pushy, won’t say no, etc. Also, the beauty standards are something else. Plastic surgery is very common. Women are expected to wear make-up in public. Even my Korean friend who never wears make-up in the US would go through the effort every day when they were visiting.

A gross mischaracterization of a country you haven't visited.

Much like the constant propaganda against other non-white countries who are "inferior" in their treatment of women's rights: "Brown countries use the burka." "You aren't safe to wander after dark, without men harassing you." "The birthrate is low there because brown men are misogynistic" "If the birthrate is high, it's because they have to keep trying until they get a son" "They kill the female babies"

[–] amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

If it was about the DPRK, I'd figure yeah, racism/propaganda, but this is Occupied Korea people are talking about, the part of Korea occupied by Amerikkka, who took over from Japan on colonizing/brutalizing Korea, who drew up arbitrary lines that designate one part as South and one as North, who backed the brutally repressive Syngman-Ree, who tried to conquer the whole nation. The amount of damage the US has done to Korea and continues to do is monstrous. Occupied Korea is more or less a puppet state and after the US destroyed so much of Korea and murdered so many Korean people, they swooped in to rebuild the parts they destroyed in their own foreign capital image of exploitation.

I don't think it's racist to figure that it may be significantly worse culturally than it could be due to US occupation and Japanese occupation before that. It's important not to mix up criticism of the consequences of colonialism/imperialism/occupation in various parts of the world with being prejudiced against an ethnic group. The one could look like the other if the person isn't clear, but they aren't the same.

[–] GreatSquare@lemmygrad.ml 0 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

IF you go to South Korea, there is no expectation that women have to wear make up. Women are allowed to be casual, dress down, not wear make up, not have plastic surgery. Some people dress up and others do not. OP's friend did not need to wear makeup every day. All Korean men are not harassing women.

These are bigoted judgemental stereotypes from westoids with a cultural superiority complex - often men who play white savior to "oppressed" brown women. The brown societies are still feudal. White societies are enlightened.

The only minor difference in this case is qualifying it as SOUTH Korea. So the women didn't have to push the subway train home after they got all made up to get sexually harassed on a night out.

[–] amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I'm not really buying it's coming from bigotry in this instance, considering I did not see any sort of "west is better" coming from the person (which would generally not be allowed on lemmygrad anyway). Many societies have issues with patriarchy (including the US, which no doubt exports some of its reactionary culture to Occupied Korea) and I doubt Occupied Korea is any exception for patriarchy, considering its history and present. Perhaps there is some exaggeration going on, but that doesn't mean patriarchal issues aren't real. After all, it is Occupied Korea where the 4B movement originated; I don't see how that comes into being through fakery, unless one is going to claim it's all western-invented or something, but since the west already occupies that part of Korea, I'm not sure what exactly it would be accomplishing for their interests there. They usually manufacture such things when they want to divide the populace and vilify the existing leadership to coup a place, not when a place is already under their thumb.

From my perspective, all I see here is two people on the internet I don't know claiming different things. And the information about Korea's history I have to go on, which indicates that Occupied Korea is a highly exploited place (by the west).

And though it is not uncommon for someone to try to play the "white savior", it is also not uncommon for people to downplay patriarchal issues and pull out the "not all men" card when nobody said all men in the first place. Patriarchal culture, generally speaking, socializes men to "pursue" women and attach their self-esteem to it, while also socializing them to treat all emotions they have as invalid other than like anger and excitement maybe, which means a lot of men are set up to pursue, get rejected, and not take it well at all (to put it lightly). It doesn't excuse their behavior, but the conditions make it very easy for it to happen. It's also obviously not all of them and there are degrees on how extreme they get when they handle it badly, but it's idealism to ignore how conditions impact people.

Basically, I think it is possible that through a game of telephone of the other person describing what their friends said, you are thinking bigotry by focusing too much on the messenger, when it was probably more like their friends doing the thing that some women do, where they describe the extremes of patriarchy they deal with, sometimes with sweeping language because they spend a lifetime dealing with fear and abuse, and some people (especially men) are quick to get defensive about this because they view it as some kind of attack on all men.

[–] GreatSquare@lemmygrad.ml -1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

If you don't have anything to base an opinion on about another culture (other than some shit you heard), then don't express an opinion.

Spreading racist stereotypes about South Korean people is bigotry. This went well beyond criticism of the K-pop industry.

[–] amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The person in question literally said to you: "It’s very possible I misremember what my friends said; I’ll check on them later."

And you're still banging on about it with a one-track mind. And as I already went over, it is possible this comes from "South Korean" women stating these views about "South Korean" men based on their personal experiences with them! Not because they are racist but because they are being literal in describing their experiences in life because a lot of women deal with patriarchy and its harassment and abuse. Do you acknowledge this reality of the world that pervades so many cultures (including the west, which you seem to think people are excusing of responsibility somehow???) or are you going to talk around it?

[–] GreatSquare@lemmygrad.ml 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I bang on because it is a racist stereotype of Korean culture. It's a racist stereotype regardless of the source.

Quoting South Korean women is just a micro aggressive version of of the same racist statement.

Write and then deleted an essay on racism because I can't be fucked arguing with white people on offensive shit like this. Carry on.

[–] amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 day ago

I have no problems saying that racist stereotypes are real and are a problem, but that doesn't change the reality of patriarchy being pervasive. It's not an either-or for me, both are real and can be real at the same time.

That said, I'm still not clear on if you actually believe patriarchy is real and a problem that affects many cultures. This whole thing kinda feels like people talking past each other a lot and I just feel kinda bad about it.

[–] TechnoMaoist@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It's very possible I misremember what my friends said; I'll check on them later. My two Korean acquaintances both grew up largely in the US, so that may have also colored their perception.

I am by no means casting judgement on South Koreans for any thing I mentioned. If anything, I believe its the American occupation that has had a largely malign influence on South Korean society, including the treatment of women.

[–] GreatSquare@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 day ago

Korean men are incredibly pushy? Women are expected to wear make-up? These are horrible stereotypes.

[–] ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 2 days ago

I find the concept of vat grown music groups so weird.

[–] CriticalResist8@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

They go through years of abuse to 'train' to become an idol, and may not even make it to the end. At every step if the label decides you're not cutting it, they'll sever your contract and leave you on the streets. I think they also have to pay back the investment in that case? People that have made it big in the industry sometimes come out with stories of how they were treated in their training, and it's brutal.

I wouldn't be surprised if many of them end up in debt or can barely afford to live. I think we imagine it's a given that being a popstar = money but I'm not sure if that's even the case. They're salaried right? Employed by a company and they do whatever the company tells them. Not different from a wage worker, except with fame.

I think the goal for an idol is to eventually get out of this servitude contract with the social capital they've acquired, and then launch a solo career in the US or elsewhere where they may be able to make their own money.

And then yeah the sexualization and how idols (both men and women) are not even allowed to date. I remember there was this apparently huge scandal some time ago because two idols were dating each other. I think one of the two (the woman, of course) ended up having to leave the industry over it.

South Korea is a fake country and this feudal culture permeates through their entertainment industry. They have like 3 big entertainment companies and they have their hands in everything: TV, music, movies. Not games I think though. If you want to work in the entertainment industry, you have to go through them. Even their 'indie' labels are owned by these companies and there's not really such a thing as 'indie' music in SK, at least in the mainstream. I'm sure you can find actual indie stuff in Korea but it seems much less prevalent than even in Japan. 'indie' stars in SK basically also have a team behind them writing their songs and performing the music, they're just allowed to be a bit less hyperpop about it.

It's a packaged commodity that has become such a market, suppliers need to churn out as much product as possible.

[–] TechnoMaoist@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Yes, being a "trainee" is pretty brutal. For those that make it and debut, some (many?) of their contracts stipulate that the idols don't get paid until their company believes they've earned back their training costs. In fact, if an idol leaves before that time, they are obliged to pay back the company for their training. Going solo is the ideal.

It's as you say; K-pop has become more and more of a commodity.

[–] davel@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 2 days ago

Worst Korea. Squid Game didn’t come from there for no reason.

[–] godlessworm@hexbear.net 11 points 2 days ago

its wild how kpop stars are treated so inhumane that they make you feel sympathy for rich celebrities

shit it wouldn’t even shock me to find out that these people go thru all this and dont even come out rich on the other end

[–] PaulSmackage@hexbear.net 5 points 2 days ago

From what i've heard, this is just the J-pop formula. Easier to go to wrestling school, unless you've got to deal with Rossy Ogawa.

[–] TechnoMaoist@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Also, how do I get new lines between numbered/indented paragraphs? The only way I found to work was to use  , but that gives three line breaks.

[–] ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

Two spaces at the end of line are used to insert a line-break.

Example (replace the two dots with two spaces!):

* Item.. 
some indented text

This will render as:

  1. Item
    some indented text

Copied from stackoverflow

[–] TechnoMaoist@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I don't think that works with numbered items :(

    Hello


1. World
Hello
  1. World
[–] ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It does

  1. line 1
    New line

Check the source of my comment to see what exactly I typed it. It's the button under the comment that sort of looks like a page. I put two spaces after "line 1".

[–] TechnoMaoist@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 1 day ago

Uhh I'll fiddle with this later and figure it out. Thank you for the help.