this post was submitted on 22 Dec 2025

311 points (98.4% liked)

politics

26816 readers

2605 users here now

Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!

Rules:

Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.

Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.

Example:

Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.

That's all the rules!

Civic Links

• Register To Vote

• Citizenship Resource Center

• Congressional Awards Program

• Federal Government Agencies

• Library of Congress Legislative Resources

• The White House

• U.S. House of Representatives

• U.S. Senate

Partnered Communities:

• News

• World News

• Business News

• Political Discussion

• Ask Politics

• Military News

• Global Politics

• Moderate Politics

• Progressive Politics

• UK Politics

• Canadian Politics

• Australian Politics

• New Zealand Politics

founded 2 years ago

MODERATORS

outrageousmatter@lemmy.world

aidan@lemmy.world

jordanlund@lemmy.world

little_cow@lemmy.world

Theonetheycall1845@lemmy.world

JuBe@lemmy.world

Lasherz12@lemmy.world

311

Trump’s shuttering of the National Center for Atmospheric Research is Stalinist; This is the latest in the relentless purge of climate researchers who refuse to be co-opted by the fossil fuel industry (www.theguardian.com)

submitted 3 days ago by silence7@slrpnk.net to c/politics@lemmy.world

29 comments fedilink hide all child comments

top 29 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] Eldritch@piefed.world 56 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

And before anyone balks at the claim. Stalin literally expelled Nikolai Vavilov a genius, geneticist, and head of the academy from the academy of agricultural science. Replacing him with a quack lunatic Trofim Lysenko. Because Stalin felt his baseless theories aligned better with Soviet politics. Lysenko's theories went on to exacerbate the massive mid century famines in Russia and China. Helping to kill tens of millions.

And all of that would have been bad enough. But for his crime of being correct and not bending the knee to Stalin. Vavilov was imprisoned and sent to Siberia to die in a gulag.

[+] frisbird@lemmy.ml -33 points 3 days ago (3 children)

A, everything that Stalin did is not "Stalinist" any more than every single thing you have done is Eldritchian

B, Vavilov was found guilty of "sabotage of Soviet agriculture and spying for Britain". You can argue all you want that it was because of his opinions, but that's not what the historical record shows. Vavilov studied all over Europe, including Britain, so it's not all that weird for such suspicions to be dealt with with prejudice during the worst war in history.

[–] Eldritch@piefed.world 23 points 2 days ago (4 children)

Wow! The mental gymnastics.

Trump and Republicans in the US find people guilty of bullshit all the time. Doesn't mean it's true. Just means trump and Stalin are paranoid thin skinned little bitches. Xi too. I'm not going to lionize Lai Chee-ying. But the bullshit sedition charges are on brand.

[–] OrteilGenou@lemmy.world 10 points 2 days ago

Don't listen to that guy, just another Frisbirdian lunatic

[–] naught@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I mean, Stalin locked swaths of people up, incited pogroms, expelled political dissidents -- but does that make those actions "Stalinist" in any context? It reads to me as an appeal to red scare sensibilities. In fact these are moves are out of any authoritarian's playbook. It's fascist brain drain. I think that's all they're saying. Granted ML tends toward tankie, but this take seems fine

[–] Eldritch@piefed.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I don't know where all this talk of Stalinist came from. That right there was my first posting of it in this thread. Stalin was an authoritarian dictator. Stalinist/leninist it's all just another flavor of authoritarianism. Not unique to either one of them really. And ultimately a straw man. Just as the claims of sedition are a deflection.

[–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

It's literally in the title of the post and your comment was defending the take by presenting an example of something Stalin did.

Like, how much more of a connection is needed?

Also, no. Stalinist and Leninist are not "flavors of authoritarianism". Words have meaning derived from the historical process of meaning creation in a society that you live in. Stalinism has a meaning that is historically defined. Leninism has a meaning that is historically defined. It not just "whatever was done".

If that's the case then the all genocides are Bidenism because Biden presided over a genocide. Genocides would also be Harrisism. Drone strikes of American citizens would be Obamism. Saving Nazis would be Trumanism.

None of these words mean those things.

[–] base10@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Not one side or the other, but this is also just as often found to be true in reverse. Kinda sucks, especially when your viewpoint is supported by a person's achievements/views/whatever. This guy could have been potentially sabotaging Soviet agriculture (maybe even in support of his larger views of how things should be, hard to say) and spying for Britain (probably more of a stretch considering he was the better/more true to the real goal person for the job which was probably not in line with any of Britain's priorities). But people do have weaknesses. Sometimes our idea of a person due to their beliefs conflict with their actions. It doesn't make him any less the better candidate for his position. However, it is difficult to determine without bias whether this was a case of trumped up charges or possibly a man with good intentions that did commit some crimes. I'm inclined to agree that he was probably a convenient scapegoat because, Stalin. But for the sake of a fair argument I think these claims should at least be researched before everyone jumps on the down vote train.

[–] frisbird@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 days ago

You think Trump and the Republicans have an exclusive lock on trumped up charges? Do you know anything about how federal prosecution works? Wait till you read about what the courts have been doing to black people and indigenous people for generations!

[–] SupraMario@lemmy.world 7 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Ugg every instance needs to defederate from you ml tankies. The apologistic bullshit you all spew is ridiculous.

[–] Typhoon@lemmy.ca 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

He's got a comment in another community removed for talking about Ukrainian propaganda. He's just another lemmy.ml cultist.

[–] SupraMario@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago

Yep, no surprise. ML users are 99% cultist for state propaganda from russia/china.

[–] frisbird@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Man, talk about apologia, y'all will excuse anything to justify fighting communism.

[–] SupraMario@lemmy.world -1 points 2 days ago

Lol says the user who is apologist for russian atrocities.

[–] ayyy@sh.itjust.works -1 points 2 days ago

Hahahahahahahahahahahha

[–] orioler25@lemmy.world 10 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Stalinism is when you extend capitalism.

[–] some_kind_of_guy@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

See, there was a time before when I thought I (and "leftists" as a group) had an enlightened understanding of all these terms.

Joining Lemmy showed me that most terminology associated with the left is tainted, no one can agree on definitions, and tankies especially will weaponize terms, somehow creating the worst take imaginable.

[–] orioler25@lemmy.world 0 points 2 days ago

Its because most "leftists" are white liberals who learned about socialist theory through YouTube or Twitter. Lemmy is a very liberal site, but because it's sitting next to social media platforms that literally suck up the ground water to promote fascism, liberals mistake it as something more. What socialists or anarchists there are on here also tend to be of the STEM variety that does not read theory and therefore is less equipped to deal with appropriated language.

[–] sunbrrnslapper@lemmy.world 10 points 2 days ago

As a kid, I used to thing the villains of Captain Planet were unrealistic. How foolish I was...

[–] CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago

Just like Communism, Republicanism/conservatism can never fail. It can only be failed by people, or because you didn't do it hard enough. If reality like global warming comes into conflict with ~~the Lysenkoists~~, oops, I mean the conservatives, it's because the scientists and experts and the educated are being too "woke". It's not that the cons are wrong about reality, no reality is wrong and institutions like NCAR must be smashed.

[+] orbituary@lemmy.dbzer0.com -10 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

Stalinist? Come now, let's not mix our metaphors. Let's say it together, "Communism is the opposite of Fascism."

Edit: my point is that there are far better people on the ideological Right to compare him to than Stalin. Stalin was a fuck, but Trump... Wait, Trump is a fuck, too. Forget it. Call him whatever! (I concede to the points below).

[–] silence7@slrpnk.net 14 points 2 days ago (2 children)

As practiced by Stalin, it was just another totalitarian government. Ownership might have been different, but when you make everything else worse, its still really destructive and kills a huge chunk of the population

[–] OrteilGenou@lemmy.world 12 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Yeah there's no reason to split hairs on nomenclature. When a leader has their opposition taken out and shot, and then imposes a totalitarian regime, their original political affiliation was just a means to an end anyway.

Comparing someone to Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Tojo, Mussolini, the Taliban, etc. isn't primarily to compare them to the societal leanings of their time, it's to compare them to how they acted after they gained total, uncontested power.

Let's hope that in this case those comparisons remain hypothetical.

[–] Ferrous@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

but when you make everything else worse

By what metrics? In which ways was Tsarist Russia better about serving citizens than Soviet leadership?

[–] yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

This is like saying “in which way is capitalism worse than feudalism.” In the way that it was easy to imagine a better alternative.

[–] Ferrous@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Im not sure I follow. Are you saying the conception of a Soviet Union was easy/destined/inevitable given how bad the Tsars were?

I'm not sure I understand your point about feudalism either. Marxists understand capitalism as an economic development built upon feudalism - of which there were many benefits in abandoning, as well as many new evils.

[–] yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Someone claimed that Stalin made things worse. You replied that Stalinism couldn’t be worse than the Tsarist system.

This is like if someone claims capitalism makes things worse, coupled with the reply that capitalism couldn’t be worse than feudalism.

Obviously such an argument is flawed. When we say that Stalinism “made things worse,” we mean compared to an easy-to-imagine, common-sense alternative for that time and place. For instance, if someone had shot Stalin and then allowed a random person to run the Soviet Union for a while, things would have almost certainly gone better.

[–] Ferrous@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 days ago

You replied that Stalinism couldn’t be worse than the Tsarist system.

Where did I claim this?

we mean compared to an easy-to-imagine, common-sense alternative for that time and place.

Why is this your comparison?? If the claim is that Stalin "showed up" and things got worse, it follows that your point of analysis would be comparing against whatever immediately preceded Stalin.

This is like if someone claims capitalism makes things worse

Actually, it's not at all like this... a better comparison would be if someone said "capitalism showed up and made things worse"

[–] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 8 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

A: Stalin wasn't communist and B: not really. The political spectrum is just a model to aid with understanding. It's not a fundamental quality the way up or down is. Political ideologies don't have opposites in that way.

There are plenty of obvious similarities between fascism and Stalinism (and yes, some differences too).