this post was submitted on 19 May 2026
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Globally there are ~500k zero-carb carnivores (hackertalks.com)
submitted 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) by jet@hackertalks.com to c/carnivore@discuss.online
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That puts us at 0.006% of the global population. How did I arrive at 500k? I kinda made it up based on carnivore study populations, but its super duper tiny. I looked everywhere, I can't really find a solid estimate. But we are totally in the dozens of us category.

I NEVER meet another zero carb carnivore anywhere organically. Plus there is huge stigma for being a carnivore. EVERYONE thinks I'm crazy.

  • Omnivore - 73% - 6,000M
  • Flexitarian - 14% - 1,100M
  • Vegetarian - 5% - 400M
  • Pescatarian - 3% - 250M
  • Vegan - 3% - 250M
  • Zero Carb Carnivore - 0.006% - 0.5M

Using ipsos (broad strokes good enough) for the other eating pattern data

It's fine to be a minority group. Live and let live.

There are some people who simply cannot suffer us in our little corner of the internet at all. My poor little community script runs every day and bans many accounts for just downvoting all the posts in the community. https://discuss.online/modlog/696952

I've dug into the many of the non-obvious-sockpuppet accounts, and it seems most of the hate directed at us comes from our nearest neighbor at 3% total population. A group 500x more popular.

I really wish we could just be friends, let's agree that whole foods, totally unprocessed is good, and leave each other alone as allies in improving everyone's health. I'd like that. This childish animosity doesn't help anyone.

Perhaps this is just the cost of being a small fringe eating pattern, easy target for other less small groups to hate.

Eyeballing daily active users on the fediverse it looks like we have about 7,000 unique users every day. There are about 3 carnivores - which puts us at 0.04% of the lemmy population.

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[–] psud@aussie.zone 2 points 1 day ago

I wonder. I was on holiday on the coast, and a fisherman I spoke to happened to be carnivore.

I think there are many more, but they're not loud about it

It's not a question on the Australian census though

[–] mech@feddit.org 6 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Carnivore

Live and let live

Hmm...

[–] psud@aussie.zone 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Maths in another thread says we eat about 1 cow each per year. Bread eaters kill so many more animals per acre of wheat

[–] xep@discuss.online 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Glyphosate for industrial agriculture alone affects all life in so many negative ways it's staggering. And that's just one industrial herbicide.

But what exactly are you trying to say here? Since all you've done is quote Jet, I'd like to politely ask you to actually put your point into words instead of sounding like Yoda :)

[–] mech@feddit.org 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

I'm not trying to debate here. You guys are weird, but that's fine.
I am a hunter, I also eat meat and so do my cats.
I just found the juxtaposition between carnivorism and the quote "live and let live" funny.
Cause the exact definition of a carnivore is killing to live.

(On a related note, wouldn't "scavenger" be a more fitting term? Cause most people don't kill their meat themselves, they "find" it after it's killed by someone else.)

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It was a good observation!

Yeah, scavenger is a great term, another one I've heard thrown around is lipovore to emphasize the human focus on fat.

When you go hunting what food do you take with you? Can the animals detect you better based on your diet?

[–] mech@feddit.org 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Usually self-baked whole grain rye bread with fresh cheese and herbs.
I could eat that for days.
And I never noticed a difference, but I can't imagine why. If they smell anything that isn't their own species, they're on max alert.
What does make a difference is not using any scented hygiene products the same day, on you or your clothes.
I've switched to only using hand-made unscented soap for basically everything. Where I live you can get lye easily at the baker.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You make the bread sound amazing!

I'd love to see your soap making process, it's not something I've ever thought about.

[–] mech@feddit.org 2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

You make the bread sound amazing!

I hope I didn't tempt you to fall off the wagon.

I’d love to see your soap making process

I really just stuck with the basics from Chemistry class.
Slowly mix 4 parts of 10% lye solution with 3 parts luke-warm vegetable oil and stir until it's soap.
You have to do it outside, use only glass containers, and wear protective goggles and gloves, but that's all there is to it. You can go completely overboard with twenty different oils and fats but if I want something fancy, I can buy it.
I'm not sure there's any place you can still buy 2-ingredient-soap.

[–] xep@discuss.online 3 points 1 day ago

I'm lucky, I can get 2-ingredient soap where I live, from a brand called Shabondama. I can recommend it.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 1 day ago

I hope I didn’t tempt you to fall off the wagon.

haha, I've been clean for a long time now, it takes alot to make me go on a bender.

I really just stuck with the basics from Chemistry class.

Your chemistry class was so much more fun then mine, we never covered soap.

Thanks for going into the details!

[–] xep@discuss.online 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

That's very cool. I'd love to learn to hunt, and also do field dressing. Maybe some day!

I think Dr. Shawn Baker popularized the "carnivore" moniker for the diet, in his book. It's more a description of the diet, since carnivores are generally defined as eating 70% or more of their diet as meat. Other names for it I've heard are "animal-based", "zero carb", or "low carb healthy fat."

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Humans live and let other humans live.

Bygones be bygones.

No food is free of death, no human endeavor is independent of the world. Making fields, defending fields, pesticides, harvesting fields, logistics, processing, logistics again, storage, etc... every input has some price in death, incidental or otherwise.

As far as I can estimate on a wfpb diet one vertebrate death happens every 2-9 months depending on the estimate (assuming 3kg per day of food). Make it well balanced wfpb and your importing foods globally, so that is even more logistics and fuel burn to account for in our morbid calculus.

On a zero carb carnivore diet that is one death per 16 months (one cow).

Not to mention mono-cropping isnt sustainable and the only demonstrated way, I've seen, to maintain or improve soil health requires animal inputs anyway. Either as fossil fuels, or as ruminants to graze, churn, fertilize. There is no escaping animals in a sustainable biocycle.

[–] Augustiner@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago (2 children)

For a lot of vegan people (I am an omnivore, so take it with some salt) the health effects of their diet are an additional benefit, but the main reason why many don’t eat meat or animal products is that they see the animal industry as a terrible crime as well as a major source of pollution. I’ve seen vegans compare it to the holocaust, and if you see animals as equally important as humans, it’s hard to argue with that. By those standards your diet is the worst diet you could have. You say „Live and let live“, but in their eyes your diet is the opposite. It is based on exploitation and killing of animals. And since a lot of them feel pretty strongly about this issue, they will attack you.

Not trying to attack you, I’m mostly intrigued… as you say, it’s rare to talk to a carnivore. How’d you get into it? Are you sometimes still craving veggies or carbs (I know some vegetarians who tell me they still sometimes yearn for a burger or a steak)?

[–] xep@discuss.online 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

If I may:

How’d you get into it

I'm sure you've heard these phrases before "Exercise is medicine." - I ran 5km every other day and would swim for an hour on the days I wasn't running. "Calories in, calories out." I was doing portion control, intermittent fasting, etc.

You'd think I'd been really healthy, right? But I had fatty liver and I decided to do something about it. Long story short, carnivore's what worked.

Are you sometimes still craving veggies or carbs

I was for a while, but not really any more. I do really enjoy dairy but I can't seem to process it that well and it gives me constipation, so I only drink a little milk now. I do drink tea and if I'm out with friends I have been known to eat some carbs to be polite!

I think craving is different on carnivore. I don't think about food at all when I'm not hungry. It's liberating. Like Jet said, it's more of an addiction. If you put dairy in front of me I can't resist it, I don't think.

[–] Augustiner@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

Thanks for the thorough reply, you guys are quite interesting to me. Not really trying to become a carnivore myself, but as jet said, live and let live, and hopefully learn about different perspectives on life. I’ll come back to this when I have more time if it’s ok for you guys. I got so many more questions haha

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 1 day ago

Oh yeah a bag of string cheese.... Gone in the blink of an eye!

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

see the animal industry as a terrible crime

I have nothing but respect for people who modify their diet (and in my opinion - make health harder to maintain) for ethical reasons. More power to them.

as well as a major source of pollution.

I'll agree that industrial agriculture isn't sustainable, but I will disagree that ruminate agiculture has to be a source of pollution. pasture raised cattle are part of the natural biocycle, etc, I'm happy to link previous posts on this or dig into the details with you if you find it of interest.

I’ve seen vegans compare it to the holocaust, and if you see animals as equally important as humans, it’s hard to argue with that.

Sure, if you see animals as humans. That is quite the epistemological step!

And since a lot of them feel pretty strongly about this issue, they will attack you.

Very lamentable, if would be far more effective if they funded RCTs to prove their philosophy has better outcomes.

How’d you get into it? Are you sometimes still craving veggies or carbs (I know some vegetarians who tell me they still sometimes yearn for a burger or a steak)?

I wrote the whole thing up here, in extreme detail! https://lemmy.world/post/35059230

However, the short version - I was fat, hypertensive, with skin conditions - I tried keto, that worked well, then escalated into carnivore and that worked excellently.

Yes - I still crave carbs sometimes, carb addiction is just as real and as strong as alcoholism. It's not hunger, but more like triggers - someone talks about my favorite pizza shop and all I can think about for the next day is pizza. But not as a hunger - I'm basically never hungry now, its quite liberating. Traveling with a group really makes this difference stand out - they are eating, snacking, and planning the next meal constantly, but I'm good and kinda see it as silly to always be eating.

The first 1-2 weeks of keto is hard core cravings and carb withdrawal - once you get over the hump then its about figure out your behavioral triggers, location triggers, and psychological triggers and overcoming them as they come up (driving by your favorite coffee shop who makes the croissants you love etc). Over time those triggers diminish

It's quite the journey, I haven't been perfect, I've had a few relapses based around some of my deep trigger foods (deep dish pizza, and cookie dough), but for the most part I'm able to stay clean. It's really helpful that I now know what carb addiction feels like vs hunger, it helps me break out of the relapses.

Happy to answer any other questions.

[–] Augustiner@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Thanks for the thorough reply, really wasn’t trying to argue with you, just maybe share some insight why carnivores are a bit more controversial to some people. Regarding the epistemological leap of seeing animals as humans, I believe it’s more the other way around, at least for the vegans I know. Humans are animals and therefore the industrial exploitation and slaughter of our fellow beings is a great sin to them. Especially since domestic animas usually don’t kill other animals so they might be considered extra innocent in comparison to us.

I’ll come back to this when I have more time if it’s ok for you guys. It’s really interesting to me. And I got so many more questions (like what do you guys think of characters like the liver king for example)

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Oh no argument perceived. This is just how I write, kind of a overwhelming infodump, sorry if it sounded argumentative.

Yeah, the vegan philosophy is interesting, I don't think I can respectfully represent it in a discussion so that's all I'll say on it.

Please, your always welcome, ask anything.

Liver King - influencer selling products, not a credible source, he doesn't publish novel research. From what I've read eating liver isn't really healthy long term, once in awhile is fine as a treat (if you like it). I also think it's clear he uses anabolic steroids, so not a good health leader.

[–] Augustiner@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I already guessed you might feel like the liver king gives you guys a bad rep. Just had to ask since he’s the most visible „carnivore“ out there. So if you like it or not, I think some people might see him as a sort of representation for the movement.

No need for excusing yourself, I didn’t take it that way. Just was trying to be extra clear about it since you seem to get a lot of flack. Thanks for being so welcoming and open

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 1 day ago

Yeah with friends like liver king....

I think his target demo is young men looking to get beefy... Whereas I'm more focused on helping those around me with their health problems.

Everything is connected to metabolism it seems. So I have lots of friendly advice. Ever since the pandemic I've made it my hobby to critically read the actual literature on health, metabolism, and nutrition. The strongest evidence exists for a ketogenic metabolism, carnivore evidence doesn't really exist outside of mechanistic suggestion and lack of contraindications.

The best way I've found to help those around me is to have a box of cgms by my door, if someone tells me about a metabolic related problem (which is basically every health problem) - slap on a cgm and teach them how to play the 'keep the line flat' game... It's the single most valuable tool I've had in improving the lives of the people around me. It helps them see the benefit of going low carb.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

It feels like most of the negative interactions are very emotional. We have had a few cordial discussions with doubtful people here, but they are a very rare exception - at some point most people get very angry that we exist at all.

At it's core carnivore shouldn't be controversial. It's about attaining better health through removing as many variables as possible. It's very empirical, each individual is here because it fixed something for them in a short amount of time. It's not a philosophy, it is a set of guidelines to fix problems.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

The standard sick person is a omnivore eating a 75% plant based highly processed diet, super high in carbs, low in animal protein, and lots of seed oils (they didn't exist 150 years ago)

The carnivore strategy says: Let's remove the 75% of things which you don't need, remove all the processed junk (including seed oils), and see if you get better in 30 days.

The 100% plant based strategy says: Hey, its the 15% holding you back, expand the 75% plants to 100%, and look at this epidemiology to know you should get better in a few years and if you don't get better, its not because of the strategy it's because you didn't try hard enough. Feels like a philosophical trap for people trying to improve health.

Yes, I'm aware that many people DO get better on 100% plant based, removing processed gunk is a good thing! Reducing Randle Cycle (not a cycle) inhibition is also a good thing! My argument is that if those two levers are not enough for someone the strategy blames the person, rather then trying a new approach. This user hostility is spilling over onto the carnivore community here on lemmy.

Funny thing - I've spoken with maybe 15 or 20 zero carb carnivores, and none of them, NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM - hates plant based people. They have all tried different things, this works for them, the more curious have reviewed the literature and found carnivore the most compelling - so plant based isn't for them... but none of them wishes ill on people doing a different diet. Honestly I wish everyone great outcomes on whatever diet they have chosen.

[–] fiat_lux@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

seed oils (they didn’t exist 150 years ago)

It's a small point of order, but China has been using sesame oil in food for at least 1500 years. The first recipe we have is in the 齊民要術 (Qimin Yaoshu / "Essential Techniques for the Welfare of the People" vol. 8 ch. 70 (zh)) from c.544 CE where scallions are fried in white sesame oil as part of a meat sauce recipe.

Earlier than that it was used for warfare, torches, lamps etc. More info on sesame agriculture in: Chen et al., 2024. Sesame use in Turpan during the Tang dynasty: evidence from the Astana Cemetery. Journal of Archaeological Science

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

That is a great point, if people are hand crushing their sesame oil perhaps that should count as a whole food.

I haven't read any papers on hand crushed sesame oil being any less inflammatory then other seed oils, but maybe? They will have plant sterols which will interfere with cholesterol - regardless.

I'm a bit of a subscriber to the theory that the body has a certain inflammation budget capacity, under that level of inflammation you don't have any issues; perhaps hand crushed flaxseed was under the 500 year old chinese inflammation budget? I'd love to read more about it

Do you know how common it was? like what % of dietary fat did it represent? Was it significant?

[–] fiat_lux@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

No clue about dietary percentages, unfortunately. The recipes and agriculture instructions we have in the Qimin Yaoshu (amongst a few others) do indicate a large amount of grain and legume consumption, but I expect the proportions of what people ate depended on how good the yield was for any given year anyway.

What we have left of the old recipes suggests sesame was likely cheaper than animal fats, because it's mentioned as a possible substitute for when you don't have animal fat available - the theory is that sesame oil production is how stir-frying came to be one of the big Chinese cooking techniques.

Something we do know that backs that theory is that sesame oil was being produced and traded in multi-barrel quantities for military campaigns. So it had to be a pretty sizable operation, even 1500 years ago.

Stone mills were used for extraction and there's suggestion that was happening thousands of years earlier - sesame isn't native to China. The paper I linked says they even found a jar of sesame seeds in Tutankhamun's tomb, which is pretty cool.

Sesame wasn't the only plant oil around in China in 500CE either, mustard oil and occasionally vegetable oils are mentioned in the texts. We also know hemp oil was being produced in China, but I don't think we know that anyone used it for cooking.

None of that has any bearing on inflammation, but I'm not sure we can really compare the circumstances of a 500CE citizen to the world we live in today anyway - there are way too many variables at play to draw a meaningful conclusion based on sesame oil consumption in ancient China.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 1 day ago

None of that has any bearing on inflammation, but I’m not sure we can really compare the circumstances of a 500CE citizen to the world we live in today anyway - there are way too many variables at play to draw a meaningful conclusion based on sesame oil consumption in ancient China.

100%

[–] xep@discuss.online 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Sesame oil is used as a seasoning in Chinese cuisine, and not a frying oil. Traditionally, foods in Chinese cuisine are fried in lard. Scallions in sesame oil would be considered a condiment, to increase the fragrance of the food it was added to.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

seed oils (they didn’t exist 150 years ago)

ok - so synthesizing this.... maybe a more correct statement would be

seed oils (not a significant component of dietary fat > 150 years ago)

how does that sound?

[–] xep@discuss.online 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Sounds good!

Maybe it's worth drawing the line between cold pressed oils, like sesame and olive, and industrially refined oils, like rapeseed oil (canola) or rice bran oil.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 1 day ago

I think its getting too complicated. The message gets muddied

The whole food message is to return to a historical eating pattern and remove unknown variables; But how to say it compactly?

Whole Foods (hand pressed oils for taste, not as a source of dietary fat)?

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 1 points 1 day ago

The best source I can find is use in russia and poland during religious fasts, but no solid data on % energy intake.

[–] NightFantom@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I appreciate this post by the way, as before this I also saw this sub as a bunch of nuts who want to eat twice as much meat to offset vegetarians.

I would describe myself as ecotarian, trying to minimize my ecological footprint within the bounds of a healthy (and let's be honest, lazy) diet. In practice I'm mostly vegetarian with a little fish occasionally (is that pescetarian? Or does that imply daily fish? Either way, you get my point).

If you mostly have medical reasons, by all means continue, you're not affecting the big picture, but I would like for the average person to at least reduce their meat consumption if not outright drop it.

[–] xep@discuss.online 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It's really hard to overeat meat, btw, the satiety signalling from fat is very, very strong. I wouldn't be able to double my meat consumption even if I tried.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 1 day ago

This! I've tried to eat to a protein target and if I'm not hungry, I can't do it. It's super difficult.

That being said, you put a pizza in front of me and I'll finish that off... Same stomach, same space, different hormonal response!

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

this sub as a bunch of nuts

That is probably true regardless, it is kinda crazy.

eat twice as much meat to offset vegetarians.

Funny thing, it doesn't matter what your diet is, your protein requirements are the same.... so compared to the standard american diet... zero carb carnivore is eating the same meat levels but adding a bunch more fat. (hence the low carb high fat mantra in keto)

I would describe myself as ecotarian, trying to minimize my ecological footprint within the bounds of a healthy (and let’s be honest, lazy) diet.

Preach! That is the dream.

In practice I’m mostly vegetarian with a little fish occasionally (is that pescetarian? Or does that imply daily fish? Either way, you get my point).

Occasional fish is still pescatarian I think.

I would like for the average person to at least reduce their meat consumption if not outright drop it.

Why though? One of the really curious things about the emerging ketogenic, metabolic, low carb, and indeed zero-carb literature is that many people are living with long term metabolic issues and silently suffering just thinking whatever they have is normal. The metabolic mental health connection is very compelling. There are many anecdotes (https://whycarnivore.com/) of people resolving mysterious latent issue just by trying zero carb - skin conditions are the most common "I didn't even realize it was abnormal" self-reported resolution. My key thesis here is most people (93%) don't have optimal metabolic health, carnivore/keto/low-carb will help most people resolve issues from minor things like snoring to major things like fatty liver.

Let's assume your with me so far: so the pivot is why carnivore over plant based keto? carnivore more bioavailable, less weight of food eaten per day (350g vs 3,000g). Total absorption of food in the stomach, barely anything makes it into the gut, very easy on the intestines. Plant based keto will interfere with cholesterol (plant sterols getting substituted but not signaling properly) which will lower ldl. Also lectins/oxalates and other plant compounds that appear to be highly associated with inflammation and autoimmune issues.

So the schism I think we are left with is how do we reconcile - minimize my ecological footprint within the bounds of a healthy diet

Regenerative farming - buy a cow every year (or two) from a regenerative farm, pasture raised on land that can't be used for crops, using the cows natural diet. ruminants are part of the natural biocycle, the cows emissions will fertilize the field, the hooves will aerate and churn the soil, their munching will encourage the grass to have stronger roots - over time that field will become more fertile and it could eventually become cropland. Heck even the three field rotation system still requires ruminants to do this on fallow fields. There is a necessary place in sustainable ecology for ruminants. I'd argue this is the lowest ecological footprint you could actually have. Find a local farm and you can even save on the planet with less energy spent on shipping things around and logistics.

Now... I've said lots of things, that are kinda outside the normal talking points (I admit I'm kinda crazy), but I think the extra cost of real regenerative cattle is worth it for the best ecological footprint and health imaginable...

And lets talk about lazy... this isn't a joke or exaggeration - I cook one steak every day, no prep, just heat and sear in a few minutes.. and i eat it, that's it. no prep, one meal.. and honestly I skip days sometimes if i'm busy. Life not dominated by hunger is amazing and super lazy! And as a super lazy bonus - no pooping, I barely spend any time in the bathroom... its not constipation if I'm empty, all the food fat and protein is dissolved in the stomach.

So the entire crazy pill - Carnivore gets people back to ancestral eating patterns which we are well adapted to, it gets our food back into biocycle rhythm which the nature is well adapted to, and it gets our health back toward optimal which means we spend less time being sick.

I'm not saying everyone should go carnivore, but I want people to know its a highly effective tool available to them, and I'd like them to be able to make informed decisions regarding their health without stigma.

However, I'm actually happy for you to be successful on any lifestyle you choose. If your getting the outcomes you want, more power to you. Just check your last lipid panel if your TG/HDL ratio is > 2, you have room for metabolic improvement, but if your under 2, and especially under 1, then your doing great.

[–] NightFantom@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

less weight of food eaten per day (350g vs 3,000g)

This is the main thing that doesn't add up for me, this almost 10fold less food usage doesn't weigh up against the 50fold (very back of the envelope averages of things you can't average, but rough numbers) decrease of land usage of lamb/beef vs eggs/grains/fish/nuts/peas.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/land-use-protein-poore

Afaik reducing meat consumption is the single biggest (positive) impact one can have on their ecological footprint.

Carnivore gets people back to ancestral eating patterns

I wonder how correct that is, because I also know that we're one of the rare few organisms with broken genes for vitamin c, because our ancestors sat in trees munching fruits rich in vitamin c and it didn't put evolutionary pressure on the ones missing that gene.

Both can be true of course, in different distances of ancestry, but it would surprise me, given the length of our intestines compared to true carnivores, that our ideal ancestral eating pattern is pure meat. (On a side note, ancestral anything is not a strong argument imo, as neither the meat nor the fruit/veg/... we eat today resembles much of what our ancestors ate, nor does our daily pattern)

That said, I believe most of the other facts you stated, like bioavailability (which goes both ways though, prions and other diseases are way easier to catch from meat) etc, so I definitely can believe the diet works, I just don't think it should be advertised as a one size fits all, nor as a first step (not that I think you're doing that). I'll definitely accept it as a step after you've tried reducing meat and processed foods etc etc.

However, I'm actually happy for you to be successful on any lifestyle you choose.

Same here though, I wish you and anyone else here all the best, and thanks for so honestly and openly having this discussion!

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

This is the main thing that doesn’t add up for me, this almost 10fold less food usage doesn’t weigh up against the 50fold (very back of the envelope averages of things you can’t average, but rough numbers) decrease of land usage of lamb/beef vs eggs/grains/fish/nuts/peas.

This graph is misleading because it looks at amount of land, but not type of land used. We have arable land and pastoral land. I.e. there are areas we can't grow crops but can feed ruminates. That breakdown is like 30/70 of agricultural land FAO Source

Meaning even if every cow was dead we don't get more arable land... which brings us to soil health - there is a bit of a top soil crisis happening, we are losing it, we are not regenerating it and our ability to produce fertilizer from fossil fuels is not infinite. We need to start taking regenerative farming seriously, soil health is importing for plants and animals and humans.

Afaik reducing meat consumption is the single biggest (positive) impact one can have on their ecological footprint.

I disagree, I'd say people need to eat local whole foods without external inputs as much as possible. Animal sources make this possible, that is how we lived historically - we couldn't import exotic plants around the globe to cover a nutrient deficiency

Another complicating factor you need to add to your calculations is that about 800M people have T2D globally right now, and we spend something like 9% of global emissions in the treatment of T2D and it's complications. A sick population eating food that drives metabolic disease is expensive on the environment even if the food is "free"... T2D is completely avoided on a low carb / keto / zero carb eating pattern, and can even be reversed in many cases with strict keto.

because I also know that we’re one of the rare few organisms with broken genes for vitamin c, because our ancestors sat in trees munching fruits rich in vitamin c and it didn’t put evolutionary pressure on the ones missing that gene.

Turns out one of the historic cures for scurvy is fresh meat! Basically zero carb meat eaters get their vitamin c from meat. two interesting mechanisms - carbohydrates elevate blood glucose, which cells use the GLUT4 transporter to move into the cell... but vitamin C also gets into cells via the same GLUT4 transporter. A high carb diet means vitamin c is competing for a highly contested transporter and this is why sailors eating mostly hard tack (clack-clack) often got scurvy. Now consider zero-carb carnivore, no extra glucose to compete for the glut4 transporter, so the smaller dose of vitamin c in meat doesn't compete and gets in... plus some of the products vitamin c is converted into is abundant in meat.... double efficiency win.

given the length of our intestines compared to true carnivores, that our ideal ancestral eating pattern is pure meat.

Well, you also need to consider the length of our cecum (place to ferment vegetable matter) - its almost totally gone. As far as I can tell from the literature, we started as frugivores in trees, we scavenged high fat left overs from carnivores / ate seafood, developed our brains, and over about 2.5 million years our gut adapted to high fat, low carb... but how we got here isn't really material, its how our bodies react to the inputs we give it, that is what matters to us today.

I just don’t think it should be advertised as a one size fits all, nor as a first step (not that I think you’re doing that).

It might be a unpopular opinion, but i think it makes logical sense as a strong first step in anybody's health journey, do a clean elimination diet with a highly bioavailable food for 30 days - see if whatever is bothering you got better, if it did then you can add things back in and figure out what your trigger was. It's a huge efficiency - it reduces so many variables .

I’ll definitely accept it as a step after you’ve tried reducing meat and processed foods etc etc.

Agreed on processed foods as a easy first step, I've seen no data that eliminating meat has a measurable health benefit - especially not in a short term testable fashion

thanks for so honestly and openly having this discussion!

Absolutely! Always happy to chit chat! I like the push back, its productive!

[–] Idreamofcheesy@lemmy.world 0 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Ok but it feels like you're being purposefully obtuse.

You know why vegans are hating on you, right? To them it's like you get a rash all the time, but you find out as long as you stomp on 3 puppies a day, you won't break out. Then you're upset because people are yelling at you to stop stomping on puppies.

[–] xep@discuss.online 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

To them it’s like you get a rash all the time, but you find out as long as you stomp on 3 puppies a day, you won’t break out.

In the gentlest way I can put this, that's a very unfair comparison. It's more that we've discovered that the rash is caused by eating plants, and so we've decided to stop. Wouldn't you?

I personally find it very sad that to think that we are being vilified and compared to people who'd stomp on puppies, just because we've decided to be do what we've needed to do to be healthy.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

You know why vegans are hating on you, right?

Yeah, but they also hate 98% of the world too for the same reason. I'd prefer they hate me over there in their 75 lemmy communities, no need to come here to do it.

pointing out a minority group, that is 500x the size of a super minority group, is abusing structural privilege to brigade and censor.. and just demonstrating it isn't neighborly or consistent with lemmy norms... that is a fairly muted and mellow response.