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YOU ARE PLAYING A TOBY FOX GAME. WHAT WERE YOU EXPECTING?! (hexbear.net)
submitted 2 days ago by Dort_Owl@hexbear.net to c/games@hexbear.net
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Imagine expecting the guy who wrote an mpreg Homestuck song to have writing that's 100% serious all the time when his games have never been that.

I know it's probably because I'm older than the average vocal Deltarune fan, but it's so funny how opposite I feel about Deltarune when I see takes like this.

I actually prefer the lighthearted parts over the darker parts. I am so, so burnt out on the barrage of self-serious writing flooding the media landscape at the moment. Not everything has to be some deep humorless mysterybox about trauma 100% of the time. I mean, yeah, the game obviously has some pretty serious story elements but if it was only that it would be god awful. The humor balances it out.

If anything, the world needs this 2010s tumblr ass silliness at the moment and I find it to be a breath of fresh air against how performatively mature and dark a lot of writing for stuff is at the moment.

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[–] Moss@hexbear.net 17 points 2 days ago

There is a massive rift in the Deltarune player base, between people who liked Undertale, find Deltarune fun and play a new chapter when it comes out, and those who obsess over the lore and theories. I'm in the second camp, I think about Deltarune all the time, but I see a lot of people so far divorced from the actual main story of the game. Like, people were disappointed because chapter 5 was about Asgore, which was already foreshadowed in chapter 4, instead of the obscure lore, like ROOTS, Friend and Gaster. It's a bit like fnaf in my opinion, the gap in knowledge and interest between the average player and the fans is so massive that the fans dont actually make sense to the average plager.

If chapter 5 was about Dess trying to bring about the prophecy because she got killed by the Tale of Hell, AKA Friend, the average person would have no fucking clue what's going on, because the game up till now has been another Kris, Susie and Ralsei.

[–] robotElder2@hexbear.net 7 points 2 days ago

I think a lot of the really vicious arguments are just young fans seriously engaging with a work for the first time. The episodic release doesn't help. Having the humility, when discussing an incomplete piece, to accept that not all your questions will be answered, that things won't resolve how you were predicting and that it would be boring if they did, is a lesson they need to learn by experience. I thought we got plenty of lore and character development for chapter 5 of 7.

[–] SerialExperimentsGay@hexbear.net 14 points 2 days ago

the festival was very underwhelming

they should just be honest and say they hate lesbians

[–] Spike@hexbear.net 10 points 2 days ago

I think no matter how good the story is for any game, if you're smashing it out the day it releases in a massive 10 hour gaming session you're not going to appreciate any of it. I have no doubt these people will be backtracking on their opinions once its been a few weeks and all the new theories and fan art and whatever else is coming out

[–] Damarcusart@hexbear.net 14 points 2 days ago

People don't understand that if the stories they love didn't have the levity that they do, the stories would be grimdark edgy boring garbage and would be completely forgettable.

[–] RondoRevolution@hexbear.net 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I know it's probably because I'm older than the average vocal Deltarune fan, but it's so funny how opposite I feel about Deltarune when I see takes like this.

Yeah honestly same, this is a weird take for me too, I'm near the end of Chapter 5, probably in what is the last fight where I'm getting my ass handed to me yet again, but so far I loved it, specially how queer it is, it feels like a genuine celebration of queerness to have this released on Pride Month.

So far I found myself laughing or chuckling a lot during the chapter, loved the characters, the setting, the music, everything so far.

[–] SerialExperimentsGay@hexbear.net 5 points 1 day ago

it feels like a genuine celebration of queerness to have this released on Pride Month.

absolutely, i love it to pieces, it's like a gay layer cake with a thick slab of wholesome yuri as a foundation for a ton of toxic yaoi with a filling of wholesome yaoi with a glazing in trans colors and a ton of rainbow sprinkles on top

[–] zongor@hexbear.net 14 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Deltarune is a perfect example of a metamodernist game. The defining feature is its oscillation between serious and silly, or light and dark. I think this might be my favorite chapter gameplay-wise, and the amount of inside jokes was unbelievable. It almost feels like a letter back to the fans mirroring all of the theories and dumb memes that were created between chapters 3-4. It also included the darkest thing I’ve ever experienced in any media, so idk what the grim dark people are complaining about.

[–] SerialExperimentsGay@hexbear.net 9 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (3 children)

I think this might be my favorite chapter gameplay-wise

After finding the hidden boss, i fully agree.

It also included the darkest thing I’ve ever experienced in any media,

What do you mean with that?

[–] Dort_Owl@hexbear.net 8 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

Maybe the weird route thing where

spoilerIt's implied Kris and Noelle painfully drown in the lake

[–] SerialExperimentsGay@hexbear.net 4 points 2 days ago

Hm, fair, that was terrifying and fucked up.

[–] zongor@hexbear.net 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

I’ll start off with, I am a huge lore-head. My very favorite games are games like Myst, Disco Elysium, Elden Ring, etc. Games in which in order to understand the deeper story they require you to dig into every corner of the world. Using the Bartle taxonomy I would be an “Explorer”.

Spoilers for weird route / Chapters 2-5 theoriesContent warning: themes of death, self-harm, grooming?

Ok so… I’ll start with I’m glad I finished the whole of Chapter 5 before I did the weird route, or as it should be called now “Side-B”.

This is a game, it’s fiction, that being said one of the themes in Undertale and Deltarune is the suspension of disbelief (in my view) being a diegetic component to the game world. The very first thing you see when you first boot up the game is “Are we connected?” That connection is the suspension of disbelief but in a kind of joke/meta way.

It starts out fairly innocent, I mean, the whole snow grave thing Berdly was terrible but in a more fantasy/game like way. sure some darkeners got frozen, but maybe that actually a way to preserve them in case the roaring happens? It’s only until you get back to the light world that you learn the truth. But it’s not like he’s dead, right? You can kind of help by putting a hot water bottle on him and turning the heat up to make some small amends.

Then you force Kris to put the ring back on Noelle, you get a melodramatic spooky song play along with the thorns sprite. Like yes it’s dark but it’s not like you did anything too wrong, right? You have fun interaction where Susie asks what the both of you were talking about and it glitches the game because the device layer tried prompting both Kris and Noelle at the same time.

You broke Kris, he uses the last bit of strength to stay in bed but you just keep pushing the controller and he starts walking like usual, or does it? If you try to prompt anything you get a single dot in response, for everything. He is essentially the vessel at this point.

Shenanigans happen with Susie/Sans and you can only progress by going to the lake.

She stands on the edge of the lake her hair is reminiscent of the “Birth of Venus” by Sandro Botticelli. Noelle says that she feels like her life was happening around her instead of her living it. But it’s not Noelle, not anymore, I broke Noelle, taking someone who you learn in the other route was already in a dark/suicidal place, and used the characters just to sate your own curiosity? I tried to back out but it was too late, the prompts that say “No” do nothing. the music swells, it’s the same song that played whenever Ralsei gives a speech about the nature of their world but overlaid with the effect they used when he was crying in chapter 4 along with the drums from the Berdly fight all those years ago. And you are gripped and can’t let go, it’s almost like whatever you did is coming back to be forced back on you the player, you feel the loss of control via being locked in. And slowly you get dragged into the lake, and it only gets faster, you’re pressing the prompts at a breakneck pace hoping against hope that maybe, just maybe if you’re fast enough they won’t drown? It’s possible they are in “nowhere” now, but as we were told “… it's not a good idea to go nowhere with somebody else... Alone is better.”

I deleted all of my weird route saves shortly after. I’m glad I was able to get these thoughts out of my head. Maybe Gerson is right in a way: “Y’know, I’ve got a mighty hunch this ain’t the right way. ... Though, I do like goin’ the wrong way. You get better ideas that way. “ but are the ideas worth it?

[–] SerialExperimentsGay@hexbear.net 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Interesting take, thans for taking the time to write up all that. And yeah, that makes sense.

spoilers, cw: suiI don't have a weird route safe file, so i have not experienced the last scene the same way you did and i think that has made it easier for me to see it more as them going "nowhere" instead of that being an actual double suicide.

Ofc, when going "nowhere" alone is better, that makes me wonder what happens if you go there with somebody else. If that would lead to an amalgamate situation like in the UT final lab.

My explanation for the weird route has always been that it is a foil that contrasts the regular route, a kind of commentary on what would have happened without certain developments, and these are mostly character growth moments for Noelle and Susie. This is the core difference between their relationships in both routes - yes, they still crush on each other in the WR, that was hinted at in ch2 and is evident in ch5, so the "Weird Route is actually a violent enforcing of cishetnormativity, denying both Kris' gender identity and Noelle's lesbianism to mold them both into a JRPG lead couple" theory seems to be out the window now. But what we see with Suselle in the WR is that their relationship suddenly lacks the parts where they help each other self actualize and where they empower each other. And this is only logical, because WR Noelle is manipulated and then outright coerced and broken into surrendering into total instrumentality at just the moment were she would have normally found the strength to develop agency of her own. Most likely, that process is at least similar to what happened to Kris.

It's also worth keeping in mind that Toby Fox said that there would only be one ending. Yet we see that the regular and weird route are so clearly and brutally diverging. The announcement at the ending of ch5 WR makes me think that chapter 6 won't be playable on a weird route safe file at all and it will only pick up again in ch7, with 6 being strictly a regular route thing because something in the story would exclude this being a WR thing at all.

This is begging the question what happens on the B side of chapter 7 when it does not have a different ending. I have a hunch that WR does not lead to a viable solution at all and just loops back to the start. There is only the true ending, the B side does not end, it loops endlessly. Because it takes fully actualized main characters to break the cycle that is playing out under Hometown, the cycle of events that has already lead to fountains forming in the past, before this iteration of heroes was around. I do not think what we see is the first instance of these events playing out. I think this is recurring, with Dess possibly having been the Girl in the last instance, and the heroes need to break the prophecy and write their own story to end that cycle. And that just isn't possible with the lack of certain character arcs in the WR.

[–] zongor@hexbear.net 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I like this a lot! This is very interesting as it parallels a concept in Gnosticism which I think is a big influence of homestuck (I’ve heard I’ve never read it) and I know that homestuck is a big influence to Toby Fox. That of the soul is stuck in material reality a need to relive cyclically to achieve a higher level of awareness to eventually achieve Gnosis. Perhaps the weird route represents the lowest level of awareness? I think too there are some theories that say it represents the original prophecy?

[–] SerialExperimentsGay@hexbear.net 2 points 1 day ago

Yes, gonsticism is big in Homestuck. I'm no expert on Gnostic philosophy, but i happen to know a girl who is and am subtly nudging her towards downloading the free demo. Would be interesting to see her takes on that.

Regarding the weird route, in the sword route it is referred to as the forbidden path. yet it seems to be more in line with the prophecy in some ways than the normal route, if we go by extremely circumstantial evidence like the absence of traffic jams in WR Cyber City and the prophecy saying "the Queen's chariot cannot be stopped."

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[–] Johnny_Arson@hexbear.net 19 points 2 days ago (3 children)

Not everything has to be some deep humorless mysterybox about trauma 100% of the time.

No everything has to be serious at all times and we cannot find any humor in the absurdity of hell world.

The last time I smiled was on August 19th, 1991.

I wear a dirty ushanka at all times, do not shave, and only take cold sponge baths because hot running water is bourgeoisie decadence.

Every day at exactly noon I have the same meal of an expired Maoist MRE I store in a pit covered in old issues of a revolutionary newspaper.

I sleep in a bed made of flags from every failed revolution so that they are never forgotten.

In the evenings I stare at a picture of vodka by candlelight, but I do not allow myself to drink because there is nothing to celebrate.

Every local org has banned me after I attempted to split it by assassinating the leadership.

There is no plumbing in my house I shit in a brass bucket with a picture of Gonzalo and Deng french kissing in the bottom of it.

My house is actually an overturned T34 in an abandoned junkyard in Wisconsin.

I have a single friend in this world and it is a tapeworm named Bordiga that I met after ingesting spoiled borscht on 9/11 in the ruins of building 7 (I blew it up after finding that a nominally leftist NGO inside of it wasn’t sufficiently anti-imperialist, the attacks on the world trade center were a perfect revolutionary moment for me to enact direct praxis against liberalism).

My source of income is various MLM schemes in the former soviet bloc that have been running for so long no one remembers who I am, they just keep sending money.

I have not paid taxes since McGovern lost the Democratic nomination for president and my faith in electoralism died more brutally than my childhood dog after it got into an entire jar of tylenol.

I own 29 fully automatic rusted kalashnikovs and three crates of ammunition entirely incompatible with them or any other firearms I own.

My double PHD in marxist economics and 18th century Swiss philosophy (required to understand Engels) sits over the fireplace of my home, my fireplace is a salvaged drum from a 1950s washing machine that was recalled for locking children inside of it.

I chose that washing machine model on purpose because I am anti-natalist.

During the latest BLM protests I firebombed a Nikes outlet in the middle of a peaceful candlelit vigil.

William F Buckley and I wrote hatemail to one another for 47 years until my final letter gave him an aneurysm. The only water I drink is from puddles.

George Lucas and I dropped acid together during an MKULTRA southern baptist summer camp and he went on to write the movie Willow about our time together.

The best way to test whether an electrical wire is live is to drool on it and shrimp salad is racist. You can make an IED out of potassium and the instructions are online thanks to Timothy McVey, who was actually a committed antifascist communist slandered by the deep state as part of operation condor.

Every time a liberal files a restraining order against me, I carve a mark into the wall.

I am running out of walls.

When Amerika finally collapses I will be ready to lead the revolution.

I am very smart and people like being around me.

[–] himeneko@hexbear.net 10 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The last time I smiled was on December 25th, 2018

I wear a dirty blue shirt at all times, do not shave, and only take cold sponge baths because hot running water is lightner decadence.

Every day at exactly noon I have the same meal of an expired Darkburger I store in a pit covered in old issues of a missing girl poster.

I sleep in a bed made of darkness from every failed fountain so that they are never forgotten.

In the evenings I stare at a picture of Lancer by candlelight, but I do not allow myself to drink because there is nothing to celebrate.

Every local fountain has banned me after I attempted to split it by DOWNing the leadership.

There is no plumbing in my castle I shit in a stack of cards with a picture of Spamton and Tenna french kissing in the bottom of it.

My castle is actually an overturned barbie castle in an abandoned classroom in a school.

I have a single friend in this world and it is a card named Lancer that I met after ingesting another card on 9/11 in the ruins of the classroom next to me (I blew it up after finding that a white-furred darkner inside of it wasn’t sufficiently anti-lightner, the attacks on Castle Town were a perfect revolutionary moment for me to enact direct praxis against lightners).

My source of income is various MLM schemes in the former Castle Town that have been running for so long no one remembers who I am, they just keep sending money.

I have not paid taxes since Ralsei won the Democratic nomination for president and my faith in killing lightners died more brutally than my childhood dog after it got into an entire jar of tylenol.

I own 29 fully automatic rusted kalashnikovs and three crates of ammunition entirely incompatible with them or any other firearms I own.

My double PHD in Darkner economics and 18th century Swiss philosophy (required to understand Undertale) sits over the fireplace of my home, my fireplace is a wet card from a 1950s washing machine that was recalled for locking lightner children inside of it.

I chose that washing machine model on purpose because I am anti-lightner.

During the latest Darkner protests I stuck a fork in a Lightner classroom outlet in the middle of a peaceful candlelit vigil.

Ralsei and I wrote hatemail to one another for 47 years until my final letter gave him an aneurysm. The only water I drink is from puddles.

Tenna and I dropped acid together during an MKULTRA southern baptist summer camp and he went on to write the movie "Chapter 3" about our time together.

The best way to test whether an electrical wire is live is to drool on it and CD salad is racist. You can make an IED out of potassium and the instructions are online thanks to QU33N, who was actually a committed antifascist communist slandered by the deep state as part of operation lightner-redemption.

Every time a lightner files a restraining order against me, I carve a mark into the wall.

I am running out of walls.

When Amerika finally collapses I will be ready to lead the revolution.

I am very smart and people like being around me.

@Carl@hexbear.net since you couldnt be bothered

[–] Carl@hexbear.net 3 points 2 days ago

10/10

[–] Carl@hexbear.net 13 points 2 days ago

i wanna rewrite this with a bunch of deltarune stuff but i can't be bothered just imagine that i did and it was really funny

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[–] Snort_Owl@hexbear.net 11 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The only thing im mad about is missing miss mizzle somehow and then hubert tells me im an evil doodoo head and i cant be fucked to replay chapter 4 for it.

Anyway I am berdly-smug the best 4th wheel in the lesbian and kris polycule

[–] Dort_Owl@hexbear.net 8 points 2 days ago (24 children)

Justice for Berdly

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[–] hello_hello@hexbear.net 10 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Tobias fox when he says in a newsletter that he wants this chapter to come off as more upbeat and energetic before the grand climax (before the sun comes down both literally and narratively).

People just complain because they marathoned this chapter in a day or less just so they can participate in fandom circlejerk (I did too but I see that as something that as something that colors my experience rather than objectifies it)

GLUE!

[–] Dort_Owl@hexbear.net 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

YOUR DADS MUH BEST FRIEND

[–] hello_hello@hexbear.net 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

SORRY TO KEEP YOU WAITING

[–] Dort_Owl@hexbear.net 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

SORRY TO K-SORRY TO KEEP A LADY WAITING

[–] hello_hello@hexbear.net 3 points 1 day ago

JARONA

JA-ORANGE

JA-KIDDING

[–] BeanisBrain@hexbear.net 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I will never not find it funny when someone goes on a hate-bender about how the thing they're a fan of personally betrayed them because it wasn't quite what they expected.

Flashbacks to the My Little Pony fandom and how some people would write entire novels complaining about how this or that episode permanently ruined the show's core / the worldbuilding / their favorite character.

[–] Dort_Owl@hexbear.net 8 points 2 days ago

It's wild but that's nerd culture for you. It's pretty funny that people seem to think the story should cater to their exact desires as if they're ordering a cheeseburger when the writer has been pretty clear from the start that the whole thing is story he's had in his head for a over a decade and is pretty much just doing what he wants because he can

[–] Datz@szmer.info 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I haven't played it yet, but Toby CAN make less-funi sections, like Waterfall or everything past Hotland in UT.

Thing is, Deltarune suffers from being split into chapters instead of being a tight 7 hour adventure, which fucks with pacing, such as Chapter 3 feeling like filler. Understandable as a section taking only 1/7th of the game, before real shit goes down, but not so much when you waited a whole year.

In the context of the final "game" we just had a fairly serious chapter in 4, and going endgame mode halfway seems early. But some people can forget the larger scale after a break.

[–] Dort_Owl@hexbear.net 8 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

Chapter 3 was filler, but it was also incredibly funny and has some of the best fleshing out of what Darkners are and their motivations. Susie's loneliness and Ralseis lack of self worth are also set up nicely. I think if we just went from 2 to 4 the story would have been worse off for it.

ᴬˡˢᵒ ᴵ ˡᵒᵛᵉ ᵀᵉⁿⁿᵃ ˢᵒ ᵖˡᵉᵃˢᵉ ᵈᵒⁿ'ᵗ ᵗᵃᵏᵉ ᶜʰᵃᵖᵗᵉʳ ³ ᵃʷᵃʸ ᶠʳᵒᵐ ᵐᵉ

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[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 9 points 2 days ago (3 children)

I feel the same way you do whenever I read Digital Circus takes online. Half the community completely and totally condemns Jax and I sincerely disagree with them, in fact I think half the people that totally condemn Jax have probably been bigger assholes just when they're feeling grumpy and tired and in a snappy bad mood.

[–] Keld@hexbear.net 6 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (11 children)

Im sorry but every interaction Jax has with another person is her(? Never watched the movie but I think its revealed she's trans) antagonising or victimising someone. She is a mean bully, and saying "Oh but she has trauma" doesn't negate that she takes joy in other people's suffering.
Jax is a bad character in tbe sense that her presence makes the show worse, as she basically just exists to create conflict for no reason and then do puppy eyes when called on it, but she's also a bad person.

There's nothing there there.

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[–] Carl@hexbear.net 7 points 2 days ago

I love how UT/DR balance the serious stuff with the silly stuff. Chapter 4 has some of the darkest moments, the most epic character moments, and it ends on one of the silliest palette cleansers possible.

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