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Underground housing, underground businesses, etc. Would that be better for the environment + possibly save on energy costs? Also possibly safer in certain scenarios like tornadoes etc.

Potential issues that immediately come to mind are ventilation, earthquakes, and flooding. But it's not like underground dwellings/basements/etc. aren't a thing, so maybe those issues have been addressed in ways I'm not familiar with.

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[–] Einskjaldi@lemmy.world 3 points 3 hours ago

Mold and humidity, look at people who do that and they have to run a heater and dehumidifier to keep the moisture down. Now you could colocate a nuclear reactor and have built in heating and large scale forced air and that would solve it.

[–] sunsofold@lemmy.zip 2 points 5 hours ago

In a number of places, it'd be great in a number of ways.

The big issue, as usual, is cost. Want a house? Fast growth wood frames can be built in a workshop/factory, stood up quickly, capped with more fast growth wood roof frames, skinned with thin boards made from woodchips and sawdust, or just chickenwire and cement, roofed with tar, and slathered in cheap acrylic paint. The engineering is all off-the-shelf at this point because it's so common.

Want a U-house? You're going to be digging. Digging down a foot or two isn't that big of a problem but tends to get more difficult the deeper you go, so expect a lot of excavation costs compared to the stick-built house. Then you have to make all those walls strong enough to hold back the surrounding earth. Get ready to spend a lot more time doing engineering tests to make sure the retaining walls will hold, the water won't turn it all to mush, etc. There is an earth pressure underground just like there's water pressure in the ocean. Then there's the roof. If it's really underground, that's a lot of weight to support. All that support has a material cost. All the engineering work to make sure it's safe has a labor cost. Hiring workers who have the kind of training needed to do more than run a nail gun and a paint sprayer has a labor cost. The finding of those people at all can be a difficult task for the contractor/developer, and can be quite difficult when most house builders haven't been doing that kind of construction.

And at the end of all this you have to get someone to pay for it. Getting people to pay even the same cost as the stick-built house for a house that doesn't fit into their dreams of looking like the vision of success implanted in their brain by the pop culture of their youth is way harder than just cutting corners and being the Walmart of housing. Being a slacker sometimes pays incredibly well. Greatness can never succeed in capitalism because the one-size-fits-most model is always more profitable.

[–] Archimedes@sh.itjust.works 3 points 11 hours ago

I certainly enjoy my pandemics trapped in a network of caves full of infected people.

[–] Flauschige_Lemmata@lemmy.world 2 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

Human internal clocks get advanced about an hour each day by exposure to light. Living in perpetual darkness (or under light bulbs only) wrecks hell on the system.

Plus you need some way to get rid of excess heat. Human society uses a lot of energy. That all turns into heat eventually.

[–] Mountainaire@lemmy.world 2 points 7 hours ago
  1. My graveyard-shift friend simply gets sunlight before going to work later.

  2. It's cold down there. Have you ever gone into a basement? That heat is useful.

[–] ArseAssassin@sopuli.xyz 18 points 20 hours ago
[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 1 points 11 hours ago

I wonder the same. Its a big up front cost as digging and drilling is expensive. After that I think it should not be an issue. Ventilation sure would need upkeep but given the milder temps I think savings vs additional ongoing costs should favor less cost at that point. It should be able to be done to not allow water to get in unnecessarily but it might make flooding worse above. Thing is except for deep mines we have not went that far underground. So like unless we did go that deep which would be that much more expensive or have buildings popping up to the surface then you would not have high rises. we would still be growing food on the surface which still takes a lot of land. My guess is it would just be better for people who don't need to be way out like working or running in a farm live in a high desity urban area and get rid of the wasteful in between spaces.

[–] lucullus@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Digging more than a few meters for a building is not only expensive, it can be very difficult and dangerous for the buildings a few hundred meters away, depending on the nature of the soil.

There is a certain cursed railstation project in germany, where the nee railstation is build underground. Though the soil is a specific type, which sucks up any water it gets in contact with and then expands. If there is a significant leakage, we are talking about half a meter difference at ground level for the complete neighbourhood, probably very inconsistent. Building typically don't like the ground moving that much. So you start investing billions more into the project to make it water tight and still fail to do so.

And after many years you are still not finished and the project seems to be a coup by the car lobby to discredit travel by rail.

[–] Flauschige_Lemmata@lemmy.world 1 points 10 hours ago

Halfing the number of platforms certainly doesn't help either.

There's currently a lot of support to finish building the station and keep the old station open anyway. Traffic has increased after all. But they already sold the land the railway switches of the station sit on.

[–] Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 20 hours ago

Not really, no. This is the same kind of silver-bullet thinking as self-driving cars, it may feel cool but in reality the best way to improve things are boring and have been known for centuries if not millennia.
Some things absolutely benefit from being underground, like railways in dense urban areas, but for most things it's just a ton of effort for not much benefit and introducing a bunch of problems (flooding is only going to become more common in the future).

What we should be doing is returning to everything being designed for the specific local environment, stop building everything identically all over the world.
Look at traditional construction and you'll find tons of small features that together make a HUGE difference, a prime example is how hot places had walled backyard gardens with a fountain in the middle, which basically turns the garden into a swamp cooler.

[–] grue@lemmy.world 25 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (7 children)

Everything you think would be good about underground would be more easily and cheaply accomplished by building aboveground buildings that connect. (Or said another way, by effectively raising ground level to roof level without the expense of digging.)

Underground Atlanta is like this, BTW: they didn't dig below original ground level; they raised the street grid up on viaducts.

[–] iocase@lemmy.zip 5 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago) (1 children)

The irony is if you designed a city with viaducts, the savings on ground disturbance and the extension in life for utilities (now high and dry instead of rotting in the dirt and corroding, being hit by fiber-seeking backhoes) pays for the viaduct system itself even if it costs tens of billions for a city.

When your domestic water system now lasts a century instead of 40 years, and leaks can be spotted and repaired from a catwalk, the savings compound over that same century. Apply that to power, gas, heating, cooling, telecom... Plus they stop hitting each other any time you need to dig more than a foot. Now telecom will stop hitting water lines when they go to repair broken fiber that was hit by a new construction excavating a foundation.

A 40 year buried power lifespan that cost $5 billion to install for a city means each year you need to replace 1/40th or your power cables and would annually spend 1/40th of $5 billion, or 125 million.

Those same cables in a utilities rack within a city viaduct system might last 2-3X as long since they're dry, don't move with frost heave, don't experience being driven over by fully loaded semis, aren't at risk of being hit while repairing something else... They also cost a fraction due to no ground disturbance being needed. It's the same cost as installing power around an industrial plant in cable trays.

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[–] Lexam@lemmy.world 45 points 1 day ago (1 children)

There are several underground spaces where people work, and live. Chicago, Toronto both have underground systems. There is a town in Australia that half the people live underground because it's so hot.

Some issues with underground spaces; it can be expensive to dig the proper tunnels, you have to make sure the geological make up of the area will support the structure, water draining down from above after rain storms can cause issues, and the big one is ventilation, you have to be able to move air through out the entire system.

[–] Sibbo@sopuli.xyz 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You are not a fan of nature and sunlight, are you?

[–] pieland@piefed.social 9 points 1 day ago

i am but a humble underground goblin

[–] DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world 26 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It's much more expensive to build underground.

[–] CapuccinoCoretto@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Yes, but "expensive" depends on what and how you measure.

[–] scarabic@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Do you want to suggest a measurement scheme in which underground building is cheaper? As is I don’t understand your point.

[–] CapuccinoCoretto@lemmy.world 5 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago)

Do you consider lifetime costs? Do you consider the value of biological services of an undisdturbed land surface and habitat? Do you consider the value of a lifetime of energy savings for heating and cooling? Do we factor climate change opportunity costs? Do you consider the disaster resilience of a subterranian building built once vs the multiple constructions of a tornado or hurricane built and rebuilt?

Sometime what seems cheapest can be the most expensive.

[–] RodgeGrabTheCat@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

For a single family dwelling (or any structure that isn't too deep), reduced heating a cooling costs could make building underground cheaper in the long run.

For a large structure that goes deep, I doubt if it could ever be cheaper to building underground.

[–] Setiyeti93@lemmy.ca 6 points 23 hours ago
[–] chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 1 day ago
[–] BillyClark@piefed.social 10 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Underground is not necessarily better for the environment. I think if we compared the ideal underground build to the ideal above ground build, underground would actually be worse for the environment.

Think about it this way: The advantages you might get from underground are related to reclaiming ground and comprehensive city planning. But you can reclaim roof space to make up for the ground, and you can get the same benefits from city planning building above ground.

The idea that you'd just leave pure wilderness on the ground level when you build underground is not realistic. You could grow the crops you need right there above it, instead, for example. A certain amount of land is needed to support each person. But either way, people would be going to the surface every day. If you build underground, you'll also be building above ground.

Meanwhile, underground requires quite a bit more stuff. You have to plan more to manage heat and ventilation. It's difficult to increase density underground because you can build higher more easily than you can dig deeper.

[–] village604@adultswim.fan 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Think of how energy efficient your HVAC would be, though. Especially once the planet really starts cooking.

AC sure, but not ventilation or heating, unless there's geothermal energy available. And geothermal sites tend to correlate with low safety underground because of geological activity and nasty gases.

[–] vagrancyand@sh.itjust.works 14 points 1 day ago

It works, when designed well enough. The problem is how do you continue to support the above ground structures, if you aren't as lucky as Chongqing geographically. You have to essentially plan not only all the weight of the structures of each underground level, but also above ground level. That takes lots of highly specialized engineering teams to figure out, which is a huge upfront investment.

Which brings another major problem: Cost. Creating underground structures requires massive mining rigs and blasting and getting rid of the material that comes out and constant review of any potential damage that does when further expanding the city out; all of that costs just so much money compared to normal buildings. If your goal is for-profit development, you'll never break even.

And of course the most obvious problem, most humans are not mole people and do not want to be underground. Sun-deprivation and outdoors-deprivation have serious mental and physical health issues attached, which are not solved by artificial UV-producing lights or indoor plants.

[–] sbeak@sopuli.xyz 2 points 20 hours ago (2 children)

A lot of places already have underground malls, particularly those connected to the subway system. Many roads go underground too, especially when there's a large mountain, ocean, lake, etc. in the way.

But yes, most places are still above ground, as for one, it isn't cost effective to dig out all of the dirt required to create the large underground chambers, the supports needed to prevent collapse, etc. Many tunnels take years or even decades to become finished, an entire city of ground-dwelling people would take ages to dig out!

Aside from being expensive (in both money and time), there's a few practical reasons why this isn't the best idea. You wouldn't get sunlight, so you would need to power artificial lighting fixtures for all the different parts of the area. You could probably save power by creating artificial nights, but still, it would be a monumental task to find enough energy to sustain something like this. Solar panels become out of the question for the most part*, and depending on where you are, you would need good A/C as well, since it can get hot when you're underground, and that consumes additional power. Hydropower could be used, but with underground sources of water rather than rivers. Geothermal energy might become more mainstream as well, which would be kind of cool!

You pointed another big problem, flooding. This would be a large risk, particularly if you live in an area with lots of aquifers (sources of water that are underground) or with lots of permeable soil and rock (so rain easily seeps through the ground), flooding will be a significant issue to tackle. Earthquakes might exacerbate the issue as well, and the shaking of the quakes could also be a problem for the supports preventing the chambers and tunnels from collapsing, like how foundations of our aboveground buildings need to be strengthened. Maybe some sort of moving dampener could be used, like those in tall skyscrapers?

*Theoretically, you could have somebody on the surface maintain the solar panels the cover the Earth, but then you need to build all the infrastructure for somebody to move and live on the surface, in which case you might as well not have everybody live underground. Maybe that could be automated with robots, but that's not feasible with current technology.

[–] sbeak@sopuli.xyz 2 points 20 hours ago

I also read about a psychological study of living underground reported by DW News, and the sense of time lengthens when you're in the dark caves for a long period of time. Really interesting I think! This kind of thing would mess with our Circadian rhythm

[–] jpreston2005@lemmy.world -1 points 13 hours ago (2 children)

You wouldn’t get sunlight

Mad skylights, my dude.

it can get hot when you’re underground

It is almost universally known that being underground is cooler.

flooding will be a significant issue to tackle. Earthquakes might exacerbate the issue as well

Basements typically have sump pumps, and drainage. We build buildings that can withstand earthquakes, why couldn't the structure of the underground dwelling be similarly strengthened?

you need to build all the infrastructure for somebody to move and live on the surface

Bro we already built that.

It's cooler underground because it's well insulated. That also means it's incredibly difficult to get rid of any waste heat. With artificial lighting, electronics, hell even just people moving around, that's a ton of heat being out that needs to go somewhere. Not to mention the amount of ventilation that would be required just to have breathable air. Are you imagining people driving around on underground roads?

[–] sbeak@sopuli.xyz 1 points 3 hours ago

Mad skylights, my dude.

But then you wouldn't get the protection from the elements being underground gives you, you would just be more vulnerable to flooding by creating a deep valley. Unless you mean placing glass over the entire thing, but that would be very expensive, it would be very heavy (so needs to have even stronger supports), and would need to be cleaned by somebody on the surface.

It is almost universally known that being underground is cooler.

It depends on where you are. In very sunny places, yes, it would be cooler. However, when you are deep underground, it can get very hot as well! Many construction projects involving digging out deep tunnels and holes have been cancelled because it became too hot for the workers and machines to operate!

why couldn't the structure of the underground dwelling be similarly strengthened [for earthquakes]?

Yes, you would, I mentioned this point needed to be considered. It's a larger consideration when you're underground, as there needs to be additional supports to prevent the chamber and tunnels from collapsing (you might have seen the braces of those mining tunnels, think those but on a much larger scale)

Bro we already built that.

But with the solar panels idea (or your skylights w/ glass), you can't really use the current infrastructure. You would need special roads, homes, etc. that go around them. Also, I would assume that less urbanised areas would need more development to be able to manage an array of solar panels or glass skylights.

Also, I treated this question more like what if humans never built massive cities above ground and we became underground dwellers (perhaps sometime after heavy construction equipment catched on),

[–] DoubleDongle@lemmy.world 9 points 1 day ago

The tradeoff for resilience in emergencies is that the if the ventilation fails hard enough, everyone who can't get out suffocates. Flooding, as you guessed, is also a serious probelm. Everything that can flood a basement now floods a living space.

Heat and AC are normally going to cost less, but the cost of construction, maintenance, and modification of the structure are way higher and generally kinda dangerous. Not worth it.

[–] etchinghillside@reddthat.com 10 points 1 day ago

Scarcity of livable land isn’t exactly an issue at this point in time to heavily warrant it.

[–] RodgeGrabTheCat@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Easier to build the house and cover it with soil and vegetation instead of digging down. The front door and windows can face south to take advantage of passive solar heating in the winter.

I think one of the best uses of "underground" is to run piping in a large circuit around the property. I read in a passive solar book that 4 feet underground it's about 4C on average world-wide.

Summer: Warm air goes in from the living space, travels along a couple hundred feet of pipe, cool air comes back into the house. I'm not sure if the air would be 4C but should save a lot of electricity.

Winter: Same system but the air pumped into the house should be much warmer than what's above ground. Usually, the coldest days are sunny so passive solar designs can warm a house to a comfortable level.

[–] Bytemeister@lemmy.world 1 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

Better option is to run a heat pump into that underground loop. You really don't want underground air getting into your house, and a heat pump will let you cool or warm the air using that same underground loop.

[–] RodgeGrabTheCat@sh.itjust.works 1 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

I was thinking of a closed loop system not pumping moldy humid air into a house.

Your idea isn't bad but does need a space big enough for a technician to service the external unit. Also, the external part of a heat pump isn't supposed to be enclosed. Not sure if a tunnel counts as enclosed or not.

[–] Bytemeister@lemmy.world 1 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago) (1 children)

Ground loop heat pumps are already a thing.

As for maintaining the unit, you just have a service panel you can remove to access it.

[–] RodgeGrabTheCat@sh.itjust.works 1 points 15 hours ago

Always good to learn something new, thanks.

[–] boltzbruh@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

Do you want Morlocks and Eloi? Because that's how you get Morlocks and Eloi

[–] litchralee@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

There are indeed places where large amounts of human activity takes place underground, often being metro systems and their associated retail spaces; Tokyo Station in Japan comes to mind as having an underground mall attached to it.

But the same caveats for underground construction of transportation systems also apply to all other underground structures that humans would like to build. Consider the differences between ground conditions in: the San Francisco Bay Area, Denver, and New York City.

The Bay Area is the outlet for major rivers in northern California, bounded by mountain ranges on virtually all sides. The surface is either a thin covering of soil atop this mountain rock, or is a layer of looser soil or mud, made from the sediments carried in by those rivers. This makes for fantastic agricultural conditions but presents a real risk of liquifaction when there's an earthquake. While an underground structure wouldn't fall over -- because it's within the ground -- it could certainly lose its supports unless it has piles all the way down to the rock. And that's only buildable on the narrow shoreline region where there's sufficient depth before hitting the rock layer.

With Denver, it's basically all rock, so to build within the rock would require blasting it away and building within the hole, or to build normally then bury the structure in fill, so that it's below grade.

With NYC, it's a different story because the ground conditions make it fairly easy to dig tunnels and drive piles, and the bedrock layer beneath Manhattan is strong enough to support the weight of supertall-class skyscrapers. On this point, the New York Fed's Gold Vault is in the basement in Manhattan, precisely because the volume of gold inside would be a serious strain on any foundation and the geology beneath.

All that said, the surface conditions in some extreme climates may warrant building underground, or avoiding the underground outright. Burying a dwelling in New Mexico would make a lot of sense, due to the hot and dry Southwestern climate. But in Alaska, an underground dwelling would cause melting of the permafrost layer below, resulting in a similar situation to liquefaction. I suppose this can be mitigated, but it would be a monumental effort, akin to Camp Century in Greenland. That project was abandoned due to changing ice geology.

[–] gnu@lemmy.zip 2 points 23 hours ago

I actually quite like the idea of an underground house - it'd be easier to get a nice stable temperature year round and would be much easier to design for bushfire resilience (steel sheets over skylights/doorway, steel mesh over ventilation and you're pretty set). I could do with my own personal hobbit hole.

I would however want it to be in a position where it does not require pumped drainage. That restricts you to places on a decent slope so you can use gravity to keep things dry and cozy rather than rely on pumps that could break down. Not having a view in the vast majority of locations would also be a downside, but to be fair being able to see a good bit of distance is sadly not something you get in most normal houses anyway.

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

If we all lived underground, there would be no sound! Have you not heard Jamiroquai?

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