this post was submitted on 21 Oct 2023
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Japan has really weird views about what "old" means (hexbear.net)
submitted 2 years ago by doublepepperoni@hexbear.net to c/chat@hexbear.net
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I've posted about this before but it continues to fascinate me. I'm also not talking about the more obviously fucked up topic of the sexualising of teenage girls in Japanese media, but what constitutes an "older" person over there.

I'm currently watching the Netflix adaptation of One Piece, and saw some Japanese discussion about the show's portrayal of Shanks and the actor playing him, who looks like this on the show:

There were comments saying that he "looks too much like a man past his prime" but also comments like "I like seeing attractive older men in media" and I'm just confused since he looks like a perfectly normal handsome actor man. They talked about him like Western social media talked about a 65-year-old Jeff Goldblum

I guess you turn into an ossan immediately after your 25th birthday

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[–] SerLava@hexbear.net 49 points 2 years ago (2 children)

this is the country that produces extremely serious cartoons wherein the mitigation of a global catastrophe is assigned to a group of 12-16 year olds

[–] BynarsAreOk@hexbear.net 35 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

The 30yo superheroes are all stuck in the office working until 12am taking the last train back home.

[–] dRLY@hexbear.net 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Being honest, I hadn't really thought about it until now. Seeing how Japanese work culture is and how in a lot of cases (specifically the "businessman" type office jobs) many young people might just see it as the beginning of no more "life". So if all the freedom and fun of basically everything college or lower ed levels is where the concept of "young" just ends, and old age means no longer being able to do anything other than boring work. And while not an excuse for adults lusting after actual kids (it isn't), it could be a weird reaction to the mass desire to be/feel "young" again when looking at it from an "old" POV. So maybe the hard shift in basically all of Japan's work culture vs free time to just do more free time things could help in shifting both the idea of what "old" is as well as turning fixation of lusting after or otherwise yearn to "feel" young again.

But I also can't say that the headspace of the US is much better in how our work/life systems are getting any better and might start shifting into a weird clone of what our own corpo overlords want to copy from Japan (or other SEA nations). We already see more and more articles about how corps and many small businesses either openly or imply that you should be finding ways to bring work into "free" moments in your non-work portions of the day. How not doing that shit is signs of "just not being motivated to succeed". And how even those moms out there are getting pressured into getting back to work sooner or be quietly replaced for not being as available due to now having kids.

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[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 47 points 2 years ago

Well imagine that. The country with a bigger cult of youthfulness problem than America has skewered perceptions of reality when it comes to the perception of the human lifespan

[–] WoofWoof91@hexbear.net 44 points 2 years ago

cute twink is "older man in media"

it's joever for me sadness-abysmal

[–] RyanGosling@hexbear.net 44 points 2 years ago (2 children)

They have a whole word for it

In Japan, women had traditionally been expected to marry at a young age,[19] and those who were unmarried after the age of 25 were metaphorically referred to as (unsold) Christmas cakes (クリスマスケーキ) in reference to items which are still unsold after the 25th.[20] The term first became popular during the 1980s[21] but has since become less common[22] because Japanese women today can remain unmarried with somewhat less stigmatization.[23] An equivalent term does, however, still exist that hearkens to the "unsold" nature of unmarried women, urenokori (売れ残り, "unsold goods").

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_cake

Japan is full of single, lonely MILFs because society doesn’t want to have sex with them. Incredibly sad

[–] HerbalGamer@lemm.ee 27 points 2 years ago

Japan is full of single, lonely MILFs because society doesn’t want to have sex with them. Incredibly sad

So that's where those internet ads were poiting to!

[–] TheDialectic@hexbear.net 21 points 2 years ago (3 children)

volcel-judge

I am shocked how strong the urge is to say regrettable things about a group of hyperexploited colonized people.

Japan really has been forced to embody the worst of anglo idology.

[–] Big_Bob@hexbear.net 23 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Does Japan count as a colonised country when they were an (insanely fucked up) empire for most of its existence?

[–] RyanGosling@hexbear.net 13 points 2 years ago (1 children)

They were an empire that failed and became a client state. They’re not colonized at all unless you’re counting the indigenous people

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[–] replaceable@hexbear.net 13 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Japan was never colonized, the opposite is true, they were the colonizers

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[–] RyanGosling@hexbear.net 10 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Lol you really think their ideology and work culture would be any different if they had won the war? Colonized my ass

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[–] kristina@hexbear.net 38 points 2 years ago (1 children)

25+ is milf category as confirmed by DiCaprio

[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 21 points 2 years ago (1 children)

But all the women that DiCaprio broke up with didn't have children but possibly were wanting to start a family.

Wouldn't that make them wannabes milfs?

[–] kristina@hexbear.net 30 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Milf is just a number at this point, not whether you're a mom or not

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[–] SorosFootSoldier@hexbear.net 37 points 2 years ago (2 children)

In Japan when you're in your mid-twenties you're close to death, I'm an ancient lich.

[–] keepcarrot@hexbear.net 27 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Weird for a country with a high avg lifespan

[–] doublepepperoni@hexbear.net 43 points 2 years ago (3 children)

I think it's because traditionally (or at least in modern capitalist Japan) you are only thought to have a brief period of relative freedom that ends after university, after which you're supposed to slave away at a corporation while supporting a family until you croak or retire if you're a man or be a housewife if you're a woman.

It's a large part of why protagonists tend to be so young in Japanese media- you could conceivably only be gallivanting around the world having adventures when you're a kid or a teen and all the grizzled experienced older guys are like 24 years old, otherwise it'd be weird and pathetic if they weren't settled down

I mean, essentially there's no difference to how Western society has been set up since at least after the end of World War II but I guess the social expectations are strong enough over there that it also affects how fictional characters in fantastical settings are viewed

[–] keepcarrot@hexbear.net 21 points 2 years ago

For what it's worth, Japanese labour law is substantially weaker than the US's, so your life is even more consumed by corporate life. Also Japanese culture is consolidated under fewer corporations.

Stuff to think about. My mum (Japanese) is still working and she's nearly at avg lifespan for a Japanese woman. All remote work though

[–] JohnBrownNote@hexbear.net 16 points 2 years ago

i much preferred the older style of 14 year old shonen characters looking and acting like 20 yearolds to the last decade or so of "18" year old characters who look and act 12.

[–] SuperNovaCouchGuy2@hexbear.net 10 points 2 years ago

you are only thought to have a brief period of relative freedom that ends after university, after which you're supposed to slave away at a corporation while supporting a family until you croak or retire if you're a man or be a housewife if you're a woman

Really well put, the modern novel "A Personal Matter" encapsulates this attitude in its soy themes.

[–] Evilphd666@hexbear.net 20 points 2 years ago (1 children)

30 was my twink death.

[–] TerminalEncounter@hexbear.net 9 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The world's oldest twink 🫡

[–] wtypstanaccount04@hexbear.net 17 points 2 years ago (1 children)

twink is a state of mind, no such thing as twink death

Also being more serious here, can we talk about how fucked up the concept of twink death is? Consider how many gay men were dying at the age of twink death not too long ago due to AIDS. It's a body dysmorphia creating phenomenon and just another way to make people feel like shit about themselves.

[–] TerminalEncounter@hexbear.net 12 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I know it's so maddening, hearing someone who's like 19 whine about twink death wtf...

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[–] happyandhappy@hexbear.net 27 points 2 years ago

I guess you turn into an ossan immediately after your 25th birthday

you do. unlimited genocide on the superstructure

[–] ComradeChairmanKGB@lemmygrad.ml 24 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Old starts when you get back and joint pain. So as soon as you become a wage slave basically.

[–] kristina@hexbear.net 22 points 2 years ago

Been an old bitch since the day I was born

[–] BynarsAreOk@hexbear.net 21 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Are you sure you're not getting lost on the language barrier here? At least a link would be nice. Not that I don't disagree with the theme here but direct translations can be iffy. I like to be extra careful when taking second hand account view from someone that may not even speak that language as a 2nd or even 3rd language.

I also think the Netflix adaptation was mostly well received though this is from a quick glance I could be wrong I don't watch/care about Netflix shit.

Also this community has an extremely bad case of projecting western cultural standards onto everyone else. I absolutely love the juxtaposition of Japanese people acknowledging someone isn't young anymore meanwhile Hollywood is literally trying to turn 80yo ~~walking corpses~~ "actors" into 30yo superstars and pretending everyone is just going to clap and nod along as if its fine and good lol.

[–] doublepepperoni@hexbear.net 13 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

You could even say Japanese people are being more egalitarian- while Hollywood has a long tradition of more uhh... seasoned male actors being celebrated as sex symbols and silver foxes, the same treatment is very much not extended to female actors. (Also just look at the relative age between someone like Tom Cruise and the actors playing his love interests across his career)

I also wasn't trying to say WEST GOOD JAPAN BAD, despite how my post may have come across- it's just interesting to see different cultural standards in practice.

Like watching playthroughs of the Red Dead Redemption games and comparing how Japanese and Western commenters view the main characters.

Westerners think Arthur Morgan and John Marston are just BADASS COWBOYS or HOT DADDIES or whatever whereas Japanese people often qualify their statements more, saying they're pretty cool... for older guys

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[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 15 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

It's not just Japan, this attitude is present across all of SEA and is responsible for pretty much every single person in media looking like an identical pretty boy clone. South Korea is the worst for it but it's present in China (which is why they're fighting it now) and also other sea countries to varying degrees.

It's an extremely shit social trend.

[–] xXthrowawayXx@hexbear.net 13 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Why is there live action one piece?

That looks like ass. What the hell?

Like, how would you translate a comic book with art known for being super stylized and exaggerated with big chonky lines into a tv show? I know, how about live action!

[–] doublepepperoni@hexbear.net 24 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I had the exact same reaction but the show's actually pretty decent! The makers actually cared, would recommend

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[–] wtypstanaccount04@hexbear.net 13 points 2 years ago

Lots of "oba-sans" who look no older than 30

[–] Leon_Grotsky@hexbear.net 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

When is this in the story? If this is before Luffy sets sail than I think he's a bit old sure, otherwise Shanks is supposed to be like almost 40 so IDK what they're smoking. The actor is almost exactly the same age as Shanks should be in the main story.

spoiler

My biggest issue is he has 2 arms

[–] doublepepperoni@hexbear.net 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

It's young Shanks. That is, Shanks when Luffy is a kid, not teen Shanks - a different actor briefly appears as him in the crowd in the Gold Roger execution scene that begins the show. Unless they compress the fuck out of the timeline I imagine we won't see present day Shanks until Season 8 or something

Spoilers, I guess?

spoiler

Kinda sad the show skipped Buggy's flashbacks with him and Shanks as young pirates

[–] Leon_Grotsky@hexbear.net 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Okay, if this is when Luffy is still little then I agree the actor is a bit old, as Shanks should be in his late 20's then; but I also think he (Peter Gadiot) looks a little young for 38 and doesn't make for a great Shanks regardless (unless the actor plays the part well, which I can't attest to.) That's a question of medium rather than flaws in the actor.

spoilerThat actually is sad because I think Buggy's connection to Shanks and Gol D. Roger is what makes him something other than an annoying sideshow/filler character, it makes him more sympathetic(?) or more of a character worth remembering because of his deeper ties. It also almost doesn't make sense to bring him back for more pivotal moments in the story later without that connection so I imagine if it goes on long enough it will come back to it as a plot twist or something.

[–] doublepepperoni@hexbear.net 6 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I didn't realise he was that old- I just thought he looked fitting as modern day Shanks since in the manga he doesn't look radically different. Like just throw the new outfit and a fuller beard on him or something and you can say he's aged 10 TV/movie years. The actor playing Garp addresses the crowd during Roger's execution set 22 years before the show takes place and I think they just dyed his hair and shaved his beard slightly compared to how he appears during the scenes set during present day.

Spoilers:

spoilerYes, Garp actually plays a big role in this retelling of the East Blue arc. After Morgan is defeated, Garp takes notice and begins personally tailing Luffy and crew. Helmeppo and Koby get immediately stationed on his ship and also appear throughout the season, going through the character development Oda later presented in the chapter title page stills. I like it so far

Of course, that doesn't take into account how much real-world time will pass until we get to the point where we actually see Shanks again. Still, the actor did a fine job portraying him.

Also- Buggy does mention serving on a ship with Shanks to Luffy! I was just expecting it to cut to the flashback right after, but that didn't happen. The entire section with Buggy and crew was greatly shortened and altered so it takes place entirely within one episode so I can see why it was excised (for now at least*). Just to give you an idea, Buggy is the only one that gets an entire fight- Cabaji gets choked out after taunting a captured Zoro for a bit and the rest of Buggy's crew is beaten by Nami and Zoro off-screen after they escape.

They kind of took Buggy in a slightly different direction and his interactions with Luffy are set up to lead into the rest of Luffy's flashbacks since the opening episode only had half of them, up until the moment Shanks discovers Luffy has eaten the Devil Fruit. Buggy is slightly less of a slapstick character in the live action version and slightly more of a creepy murder clown. It's a great and funny performance though

More spoilers:

spoiler

I said for now because while the third episode is the first half of the Usopp recruitment/Captain Kuro plot, a B plot involves Arlong and his crew of all people showing up to Buggy's circus after he's been defeated to threaten him and he offers to take them to Luffy. Nami's hidden snail transponder that she used to secretly communicate with them gets accidentally taken out which is why they're out looking for her, I think. I have no clue how this and the Garp plotline are going to play out but I'm excited to find out

I would highly recommend checking out the show, it really is surprisingly well done and most importantly, just a fun time

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[–] booty@hexbear.net 10 points 2 years ago (1 children)

What are you talking about? I see an ancient zombie man who seems to have just dragged himself out of the grave. What is he, like 30? Ew!

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