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submitted 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) by GinAndJuche@hexbear.net to c/askchapo@hexbear.net

I've recently read"The Verge: Reformation, Renaissance, and Forty Years that Shook the World" and want to hear what all of you think the answer is, because I feel like the book was missing something in its thesis and I am not very sure what that is.

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[-] ComradeRat@hexbear.net 64 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Trade. Specifically, trade overseas (sea transport is much faster than land transport to the point of qualitative difference) allowed by long-distance ships. This seems to have had dramatic effects from very early on centred around the Mediterranean (e.g. Bronze age, Hellenic world, Rome, etc for more detail see Broodbank's The Making of the Middle Sea). The secret to merchants' capital and hence merchants' power is found in ch5 of Kapital:

The form of circulation within which money is transformed into capital contradicts all the previously developed laws bearing on the nature of commodities, value, money and even circulation itself. What distinguishes this form from that of the simple circulation of commodities is the inverted order of succession of the two antithetical processes, sale and purchase. How can this purely formal distinction change the nature of these processes, as if by magic?

But that is not all. This inversion has no existence for two of the three persons who transact business together. As a capitalist, I buy commodities from A and sell them again to B... [A&B] step forth only as buyers or sellers of commodities. I myself confront them each time as a mere owner of either money or commodities, as a buyer or a seller, and what is more, in both sets of transactions I confront A only as a buyer and B only as a seller. I confront the one only as money, the other only as commodities, but neither of them as capital or a capitalist, or a representative of anything more than money or commodities, or of anything which might produce any effect beyond that produced by money or commodities.(258)

Even in the relatively even playing field of the Mediterranean, this creates the ability of one party, the capitalist, to hold an overwhelming advantage of knowledge of (closer to) the entire process of exchange, instead of one part. In addition, this creates impetus to find new sources of valuable materials (a source of relative surplus value) spurring expansion. These twin impulses help drive and enable early European expansion. The next key to super-imperialism lies in the medieval monasteries.

Moving quickly (for more detail; Landes The Invention of Time and parts of Crosby The Measure of Reality), medieval monks became very fixated on routine, schedule, fixed times unchanged by the movement of the sun, etc. This made them efficient workers, and it spread into the cities. This conception of time (time composed of homogenous, discrete units instead of heterogenous, continous movement) is a necessary precondition for the existence of the capitalist mode of production, but here we are interested in its relationship to the construction of the modern escapement clock (as opposed to e.g. water clocks, sun-dials, etc).

Modern clocks (basically the kind where time is measured by discrete intervals of sounds; the tick) arise from this conception of time, as a way to create clocks that are more consistent. At first, a main goal of such clocks was to regulate monastery life better; it spread to cities and burghers from there. At this point, we are at the pendulum clocks, and these serve well for use on land. However, the clock has applications for navigation.

In sea navigation you wanna know how far North/South you are (latitude) and how far East/West (longitude). Latitude is much easier to find to an accurate degree than longitude, so it was a major limiting factor in naval navigation. The pendulum clock allowed for much more accurate longitudinal readings, but pendulums do not work at sea. Even more complicated, smaller, mechanical clocks were needed, and they were created. This allowed Europe to reinforce its naval navigation advantage regarding trade.

From 1492 and even earlier, the ships developed through mass trade in the mediterranean saw Europe become a global middleman, buying (or stealing) goods in places where they were common and selling them in places where they were rarer. This was ultimately the source of European wealth and power, as they enjoyed a collective near monopoly on (direct) intercontinental trade, flow of information and military movement.

Europe's dependence on those ships gave it impetus to develop more intricate clocks and ships, and the wealth flowing into Europe gave it the means. As Europe shifted more towards exporting manufactured goods, this created impetus for methods to rapidly produce tons of shit. As manufacture turned into industry (meaning; as the machine was invented and the human turned into a mere motive power and machine-minder), a more controllable motive power was needed, and coincidentally existed in large quantities in the centre of manufacture (Britain).

The information gap also makes resistance, or even intention to resist more difficult:

The circulation of commodities differs from the direct exchange of products not only in form, but in its essence. We have only to consider the course of events. The weaver has undoubtedly exchanged his linen for a Bible, his own commodity for someone else's. But this phenomenon is only true for him. The Biblepusher, who prefers a warming drink to cold sheets, had no intention of exchanging linen for his Bible; the weaver did not know that wheat had been exchanged for his linen. B's commodity replaces that of A, but A and B do not mutually exchange their commodities...We see here, on the one hand, how the exchange of commodities breaks through all the individual and local limitations of the direct exchange of products, and develops the metabolic process of human labour. On the other hand, there develops a whole network of social connections of natural origin, entirely beyond the control of the human agents. (208)

...

Since money does not reveal what has been transformed into it, everything, commodity or not, is convertible into money. Everything becomes saleable and purchaseable. Circulation becomes the great social retort into which everything is thrown, to come out again as the money crystal.(229)

Conditions of production (e.g. extraordinarily brutal slavery, unprecendented ecocide, etc) are similarly in "the hidden abode of production on whose threshold there hangs the notice 'No admittance except on business'"(279-80), so for example while someone might reject trading furs for alcohol if they knew the alcohol was made with horrific slave labour, the conditions of international trade kept most knowledge in European hands. Without being aware of the conditions of oppression, without lines of communication, without immediate knowledge of the Europeans' goals, etc, co-ordinated defence against Europe is difficult.

[-] GinAndJuche@hexbear.net 21 points 9 months ago

You should write a book. I’m not kidding. You packed like an entire semester of knowledge into that comment and made it easy to read. That’s a talent.

Thank for the in-depth response that made things click into place.

[-] ComradeRat@hexbear.net 16 points 9 months ago
[-] iie@hexbear.net 11 points 9 months ago

Why did Europe come to dominate sea trade?

[-] ComradeRat@hexbear.net 14 points 9 months ago

Mediterranean to start with. It's huge and relatively calm to sail on, so lotsa trade, meaning lots of practice (and profit) in improving those trading ships. Rome took this to new (horrific) heights; mass (slave) produced, standardised pottery from North Africa can be found across the entire empire, from Jerusalem to London. Rome's power (and wealth) was built on this slave labour (both in factories and in villas and in boats).

Rome's collapse slowed the marketization and decreased the scale, but on the whole by this point, such methods of transport and trade had reached the northern coast of Europe, which has a similarly large, but less calm sea. Traders here needed more navigatory techniques, and of course traders going all the way around Iberia, the sea route connecting these two seas, requires naval expertise.

Europe's polities are tiny and constantly fighting, in need of cash to pay armies (increasingly, mercenary armies). Merchants are hence supported, sponsered, etc. From here, see my points about the clock and navigatory technology above.

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[-] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 10 points 9 months ago

order-of-lenin

Way to answer a broad question with really detailed answers quite succinctly. I was trying to figure out how to get basically this across without getting really bogged down in detail. Ya nailed it

[-] TheCaconym@hexbear.net 10 points 9 months ago

This deserves its own post at /c/effort

Thank you comrade rat-salute-2

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[-] Dolores@hexbear.net 32 points 9 months ago

so until the 1800s the Europeans were not actually militarily advantaged over asia/the middle east. 1500s-1700s it was always a pretty close run affair, and the imperial outposts relatively small. european naval vessels were relatively well-armed and nice, but other nations weren't unable to field reasonable equivalents. this early period of colonial conquests were fueled mostly by the looting of america, small-on-the-map european countries could outspend you, even if their soldiers weren't much better armed. i'm not counting america because it's really difficult to win wars against smallpox

but once the europeans have the steamship its joever. motherfuckers moving against the wind, faster than any boats before slipping troops places and bombarding shit nobody thought possible with blinding speed. from a european perspective, seeing the steady progression and failings it's a bit less dramatic, but for an asian nation one day the barbarians showed up with these things in a world that only knows wind and oar power. and the engineering to make your own relies on a bunch of ground-based shit you don't have yet either

as to why europeans got the steamship, that's from the development of capitalism and the looting of america

[-] Satanic_Mills@hexbear.net 14 points 9 months ago

A large part of the British conquest of India was accomplished prior to the launch of the first sea-going steamships, by frequently heavily outnumbered armies (even accounting for local auxiliaries).

Divide and conquer played a large part, but also the social & financial institutions built in the West to outfit and keep a unified presence in India that was not vulnerable to its own tactics.

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[-] GinAndJuche@hexbear.net 12 points 9 months ago

Thank you for that perspective, I didn't realize steampower was that dramatic, but you framed it well.

[-] Dolores@hexbear.net 23 points 9 months ago

even in the first opium war a british and qing infantryman were relatively the same technologically, both just dudes with muskets (the Qing military was really declining at the time and their best troops were on the borders, which is why they sucked in the actual engagements), but the steamers ran roughshod over the navy & supported the infantry, which didn't operate very far away from shore.

[-] GinAndJuche@hexbear.net 11 points 9 months ago

That’s fascinating, is there a book you read in particular that covered this well?

[-] Dolores@hexbear.net 11 points 9 months ago

lol almost all the Qing stuff i've read is from the resident Qing-head on askhistorians. it's not a particular interest of mine, but here's a thread they did on the opium war with a meaty bibliography

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[-] captcha@hexbear.net 14 points 9 months ago

Steam power is insane outside of boating. Before all the work in your society must come from potential energy stored in food. After steam you could get free work out of rocks.

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[-] Doubledee@hexbear.net 29 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Europe had a host of material conditions that led it to this position. It is relatively resource poor, and was constantly strapped for hard currency because the trade routes with the rest of the known world were mostly one way: Chinese people didn't want a wool shirt from England, but English lords wanted silk and spices and porcelain.

This led to robust and relatively stable networks of credit that allowed nobles to engage in increasingly sophisticated and expensive versions of war and exploitation because they had to in order to keep up with their neighbor, who was trying to do the same thing. Because they were always in debt they had to keep doing more expensive things to secure more resources to pay back creditors, and build institutions to manage their money and regulate finance to keep everything from collapsing.

Eventually some landlords on an island found themselves in a new social relation to their tenants, where it was in their best interest to let them make their own living somewhere else instead of farming, and charging rent instead of feudal dues. This put everyone else on the same track or they risked being priced out of their lands and titles by a new class using a new form of socialized labor.

Essentially Europeans had to compensate for their economic disadvantages in ways that drove them to invent systems that created more productive capacity extremely quickly. I got most of this from The Origin of Capitalism, Graeber's book on Debt, The Verge and Hell on Earth. But that's my elevator pitch when I talk to people about this.

Edit: Since you read the Verge I'll just add, I think it's missing class analysis, it is looking at a set of economic structures and observing that they tend in a direction without tying it to social relations of production. I heartily recommend Wood's The Origin of Capitalism on that point specifically.

[-] iie@hexbear.net 10 points 9 months ago

relatively resource poor

don't they have good agricultural land?

[-] Doubledee@hexbear.net 16 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

I mean compared to some places, sure. But agricultural products aren't gonna buy you a fancy ivory cane from a merchant who sailed here from Istanbul with exotic wares. They want something they can get valuable goods with, not grain. The Arab traders in Istanbul can get grain from the next village. You need something they want, or precious metals if you don't have anything else.

Which isn't to say you can't build a good population off of good land, it's just that "a nice place to live" isn't necessarily "a rich place in international trade".

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[-] GinAndJuche@hexbear.net 8 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Thanks for the bibliography, I’ll check out the rest of the stuff in there.

A theme that keeps seeming to come up is luxury goods. Do you think it would be fair to say Europe is rich in useful goods (iron, wood) and poor in everything else? If Europe was truly that poor it wouldn’t be able to actually conquer anyone. Unless I’m mistaken on how poor is meant.

Is debt a good first Graeber? I really should read him soon. He keeps coming up.

[-] Doubledee@hexbear.net 9 points 9 months ago

A theme that keeps seeming to come up is luxury goods. Do you think it would be fair to say Europe is rich in useful goods (iron, wood) and poor in everything else? If Europe was truly that poor it wouldn’t be able to actually conquer anyone. Unless I’m mistaken on how poor is meant.

Well in the context of international trade it was poor. Iron is all over the place, trees are pretty common. Europe had nothing other places couldn't get for themselves, and a strong incentive to develop a method for getting things it wanted by a means other than exchanging precious metals for them.

I think Debt is the first of his books I read, I think it's a good one, approachable and also concrete. Would recommend.

[-] GinAndJuche@hexbear.net 9 points 9 months ago

So the shipbuilding was purely an incentive structure thing?

As for iron, it varies so much in what a particular deposit is good for… I should have specified that it’s actually good iron that doesn’t need the katana treatment to make a solid sword. Unless that’s a myth and I’m dumb. The point of this post was to learn lol.

[-] Doubledee@hexbear.net 14 points 9 months ago

What's required to produce those things at a scale that matters is a transformation of social relations that frees up a bunch of people and forces them to do new, alienating work. It's not enough to have good techniques, you need to fill a nasty city with people who have to be there using them to make a hundred new ships a year.

As with your katana example, technology was not unique to Europe. Many of the things they ended up using to dominate the world came from China, the Arab world, etc. But they had incentives to escalate the use of expensive technology and a social base that was suddenly uprooted by a new form of market relations that killed the previous ways people met their needs.

Economies are, at their core, a social phenomenon, not a technological or resource system. So I wouldn't discount technology and such as contributors but I don't think they are the main cause of the transformation Europe experienced.

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[-] starkillerfish@lemmygrad.ml 29 points 9 months ago

I recommend How europe underdeveloped africa by Walter Rodney if you want to learn more on the topic. In short the answer is that the power came from the development of capitalism in europe.

[-] DragonBallZinn@hexbear.net 19 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

White supremacists when I ask them that if white people are the master race, why did they need to sabotage everyone else to make themselves look good? oooaaaaaaauhhh

[-] PorkrollPosadist@hexbear.net 22 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

World Systems Theorists have some interesting takes on this. In particular, Giovanni Arrighi's The Long Twentieth Centrury lays out an interesting theory about how the nexus of hegemonic power shifts geographically and temporally through the rise of capitalism to an epochal "signal crisis" and through its financial sublimation leading to a "terminal crisis". It takes an absurdly long durée view, tracing the development of capitalism from the Italian city states of Florance, Venice, and Genoa, through the Dutch, England, and finally to the US, examining this cycle of accumulation and crisis in each case as the mechanism which drives these tectonic shifts in hegemony.

World Systems Theorists aren't strictly Marxist, but they aren't allergic either and do cite a lot of Marxist sources.

Terrance Ray and Sean K.B. gave a pretty good summary of the book in a dusty old podcast episode: https://soundcloud.com/user-972848621-463073718/year-zero-the-thousand-year-stare-w-special-guest-sean-kb

[-] GinAndJuche@hexbear.net 15 points 9 months ago

Thank you, that book sounds really interesting.

I like how the “shifting of capitals…capital” sort of uses material anaylysis to deflate the story the west tells itself about “Greeks, Roman’s, anglos/french, Americans” (depending on who does the telling)

[-] Nakoichi@hexbear.net 10 points 9 months ago

I also highly recommend Palo Alto by Malcolm Harris, as it goes into great detail about the history of the settlement of California in the 1800s and the roll it played in accelerating indigenous genocide and capitalist accumulation, and continues to do so to this day in the form of Silicon Valley.

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[-] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 15 points 9 months ago

I think people shouldn't underestimate the Mongol invasions had which China had to recover from and which the Islamic Golden Age was brought to an end. If it weren't for the Mongols, capitalism would most likely have started in Southern Song instead of Western Europe. Southern Song already invented paper currency, and in general, was already transitioning away from feudalism through the Industrious Revolution. And keep in mind, this was China having to face the full onslaught of the Mongol invasion, which Western Europe was completely shielded from. Now imagine if China never had to suffer through massive depopulation and infrastructural damage. Likewise, the Black Death was also the catalysis that brought the downfall of feudalism in Western Europe. Massive amount of death gave labor more bargaining power since the supply of labor was greatly diminished. It also forced people to question feudalism as a political ideology.

In an alt-history where the Mongol invasions didn't snowball like the way it did (maybe alt-history Genghis Khan was assassinated before he could unify the Mongols) and the Black Death never happened, Europe could very well just be a backwaters part of Asia still stuck with feudalism while China or India have a capitalist (or completely novel) mode of production which allows them to build colonial empires in Africa and the Americas (I think Chinese and Indian ships already were able to sail to those continents and this would certainly be true for alt-history Chinese and Indian ships).

[-] Dolores@hexbear.net 18 points 9 months ago

even the most optimistic estimates for Song population were met and surpassed by the Ming. and the view that Mongols just came in and killed everybody & burned everything is bizarre. they conquered, but every dynastic transition in China was ultraviolent, the Song did it, the Tang did it, the Ming did it. afterward the Yuan proved just as capable of governance and maintenance of infrastructure as their predecessors. for all the talk about Southern Song's pre-proto-industrialism no one ever seems to appreciate it was lashed to a decrepit state that couldn't even control all of China. bully to your paper money, page me when you can defeat the Jin.

but also have you heard of the Qing? with your scapegoating of the Mongols the Qing defy explanation. oh yeah the developmentally disadvantaged-from-1200 chinese just accidentally conquered the largest ever chinese state, including the mongolian steppe, a military success unheard of since the Han dynasty?

[-] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 8 points 9 months ago

Right, my point is Ming and Qing had surpassed Southern Song despite the Mongols. I wouldn't say Yuan was some great Chinese dynasty on par with Han, Tang, Song, or Ming. It lasted less than a century, which is subpar for a Chinese dynasty. The lasting contribution of Yuan was the idea that you don't have to be Han to be Chinese, which was further developed by the Qing since both Yuan and Qing were conquest dynasties.

And as a final note, capitalism could've also started in Mughal India instead of Western Europe or China. I don't think it was destined for capitalism to first come out of Western Europe. There were various candidates (Western Europe, China, India) and various historical events would eventually tilt the weight in favor of one candidate.

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[-] ComradeRat@hexbear.net 11 points 9 months ago

Friend your citation is to a book chapter which mentions the author's previous work on the industrious revolution...in the early modern (i.e. Ming) period. It does not say what you want it to say.

Large, centralised, powerful states inhibit the expansion of mercantile power. Historically (cf. Aglietta & Bai China's Development: Capitalism and Empire) the Chinese states would break up concentrations of merchant power.

Also to add to what Dolores said about Qing, I wanna point out that it (and Ming, etc) had superior famine relief and general peasant living standards. To quote Davis's Late Victorian Holocausts: "In Europe's Age of Reason [c.1700] the "starving masses" were French, Irish and Calabrian, not Chinese".

Capitalism's development is things going wrong. What we have today is the result of class struggle (paricularly around the mediterranean) ending in "common ruin of the contending classes"(Manifesto p.1) at best, triumph of the oppressing class at worst, repeatedly, for millennia. It is not a system that develops when a society is healthy or flourishing.

This whole idea that a Chinese Empire would engage in European style colonial policies is absurd, because we have historical examples of what Chinese expansion looks like; generally a slower (but still bad, brutal etc) encroching process with tribute taken as personal gifts for the emperor / court (here I am drawing primarily on Ye's The Colonisation and Settlement of Taiwan and Walker's The Conquest of Ainu Land). Native autonomy maintained often by military action from above against local officials. That the tribute is generally restricted to articles for use rather than exchange means "no boundless thirst for surplus labour will arise" (Kapital p.345), hence no boundless, rapacious growth. This sorta tribute (and de jure acknowledgement of Chinese supremacy) came from places as distant as Southeast Asia, East Africa and Hokkaido.

The two big waves of (again, still brutal, traumatic etc) migration of mainland Chinese to Taiwan during imperial era was during one of the medieval dynasty transitions, when the loser fled to Taiwan, and in the mid 1800s, when China was trying to prove that it was being a "real" empire and "civilizing" the area.

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[-] duderium@hexbear.net 13 points 9 months ago

Capitalism began in England during the enclosures. That’s how.

[-] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 13 points 9 months ago

Availability of work animals gave much of Eurasia a significant edge compared to Africa (which generally only had access to them through Eurasia).

Idk how this applies to the Americas.

[-] captcha@hexbear.net 12 points 9 months ago

The americas had jack shit for work animals but thats sort of a guns germs and steel explanation. China had all the same materials and Europe and didn't go off to pillage the world.

[-] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 9 points 9 months ago

As others have mentioned in this thread, China had the potential to be the birthplace of capitalism but got slowed down by other factors like the Mongol Empire.

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[-] Timberknave@hexbear.net 11 points 9 months ago

I wanted to chime in with trade and lack of ressources, but they also got really really good at plundering due to the political system of feudalism (whose need for currency to fuel more wars also gave rise to credit systems)

[-] GinAndJuche@hexbear.net 9 points 9 months ago

Damn, I’m beginning to tbh k I was wrong. Because almost everyone is pointing at debt systems as the cause. I really need to read “debt” by the big G it seems.

[-] Timberknave@hexbear.net 10 points 9 months ago

there is stuff wrong with Graeber. Very Chartalist view of money. But financialization as a superstructure is still foundational to capitalism's development and the conquest and exploitation of the "americas".

[-] D61@hexbear.net 10 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

As others have said, being essentially a backwater place where there wasn't much that other people wanted, left lots of time for the dirty hill people to figure their shit out while the older civilizations who had already figured their shit out where busy fighting each other until their civilizations started to go into decline. This gives some space for the dirty hill people who've, in a more recent sense, got their shit together to actually take advantage of the destabilization and start successful empire building.

I'm sure the deep history nerds can cite instances where England's imperial project could have be hindered but due to some fluke of weather, or a miss written message, or a military officer has a case of diarrhea at an importune moment that turned the tide of a battle or business deal or a political gambit to England's favor.

A growing number of elites, go out and carve out something for themselves as fast as possible in any way possible. So long as there was a frontier to be exploited, those trying to lay claim to it would be less likely to fight their own and take their claims, so all efforts could be focused outward on Africa and Asia and South America and North America instead of Sir Reganald Cockswaller, III getting into a pistol duel with Sir Richmond Baldknobb, Jr over who gets to be the sole supplier of sheered sheep scrotums to the Southwest part of TERF island.

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[-] GaveUp@hexbear.net 10 points 9 months ago

Fyi I think the word you're looking for is from a materialist perspective, not communist

[-] GinAndJuche@hexbear.net 10 points 9 months ago

You are correct, thank you.

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[-] zed_proclaimer@hexbear.net 9 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

It was the creation and spread of Capitalism, before this Europe was technologically and economically backwards compared to Eurasia. First applied by the Dutch in the 15th and 16th centuries, then significantly improved and expanded by the English a couple centuries later. Capitalism was not adopted by most of Europe at first, the feudal monarchs and Catholic church kept stomping out the budding capitalism enclaves in most of Europe.

Nation states however had to begin to form to protect themselves from other nation states. Napoleonic France, for instance, smashed apart the continental feudal system and forced them all to adopt modern systems to even come close to competing with French military concentrations and artillery production. As soon as there's one or two Liberal Bourgeois nation states with the engines of Capital roaring, the others had to follow or be destroyed.

However, capitalism has to constantly expand and could not remain on Europe. This is where we see colonialism come into full swing. The first waves of colonizers and settlers and conquistadors and explorers were all hugely debt-ridden, fleeing from their debtors or seeking fortune in the new world and colonies. It was also mostly the poor dredges of society in Europe that were forced out into the colonies (see: Australia where they sent their prisoners and debtors), the actual foot soldiers of colonization had a gun trained on their back by banks and capitalists, even while they had their guns trained on the natives and indigenous people they colonized. Here you can see the system dumping its "externalities" and contradictions onto others outside the capitalist internal system, and sucking up resources and wealth and labor to fuel itself. Capitalism is not sustainable, it requires these inputs and outputs. A global capitalist system cannot exist in perpetuity without crisis and war.

Nowhere else in the world had this hot-zone of bourgeois nation states warring against each other that then had to expand outwards by force or face internal crisis and revolution.

[-] Vampire@hexbear.net 8 points 9 months ago

It's called 'The Great Divergence' – searching that will find you the theories on it

[-] CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 8 points 9 months ago

Plague, slave trade and the Americas

Honestly I blame the Moroccans for not re-conquering Al-Andalus and instead invading Songhai, without Spain jumpstarting colonialism and the post-invasion chaos of West Africa, the European savages never would've gotten a toehold on the worldstage.

[-] TheDialectic@hexbear.net 8 points 9 months ago

I am a big fan of material essentialism. There are other theories though. Basically, europe was always a tiny unimportant peninsula on the coast of Asia. We had no noteworthy resources at all. Ad such it was never worth it to steal from us. However eve5yohe especially hat to deal with us constantly stealing from them and messing up their plans. Overtime that imbalance just snowballed and then we were best positioned to take over the new world.

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[-] SkeletorJesus@hexbear.net 8 points 9 months ago

I'm a fan of the Matt Christman take. I may be roughing this up pretty badly but: it's got a lot to do with European geography having enough natural borders to create small individual states, but not sturdy enough natural borders to prevent conflict. You end up with a shitton of small-ish states in a perpetual arms race, which means they'll be looking for every advantage possible. Even if it comes at a cost to the stability of the existing order writ large, they'll take it because losing in the arms race is a much more immediate existential threat to the individual states. China had those warring states, but the natural borders were weak enough that they eventually settled into a single state. There's a thousand other factors, too, but I hadn't seen this mentioned from skimming the top few comments in this thread.

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