The meme is you can’t do any such thing without being labelled antisemitic
Yup, it’s an issue that goes both ways. Israel has historically used the “antisemite” label as a shield for any criticism. And that has all recently come to a head, where any valid criticism of their literal fucking war crimes is treated the same as if you’re a neo-nazi. You can criticize Israel’s actions without stooping to antisemitism. But that won’t stop Israel (and Israel’s supporters) from labeling you an antisemite anyways.
It’s the same strategy that conservatives have used with things like Critical Race Theory. They work to undefine the term, so anything they don’t like can be labeled as such. Don’t like a classroom lesson? Label it CRT. Since conservatives have been taught to hate CRT, they’ll hate that lesson. Even if the lesson has nothing to do with CRT, that doesn’t matter because the conservative voters have already made up their minds about whether or not they’re against it. Antisemitism has become an undefined term for Israel’s supporters, where anyone they don’t like can simply be labeled an antisemite.
Yuo. Conservatives di this all the time. See: woke, politically correct, commie They use terms as cudgels without concern for meaning
they pride themselves on not being able to even define what woke, CRT etc are in their own words.
chuds.
It's a tough needle to thread, because there is both a lot of antisemitism and a lot of opposition to genocide that is not motivated by antisemitism. Any support for Palestinians is joined by a chorus of calls to end the existence of Israel entirely, something that would require killing a lot of Jewish people. So it's difficult to untangle the legitimate criticism from the antisemitism.
So I don't disagree with you, but I also understand why people are quick to slap labels on critics.
Israel is not "Jewish people". Israel "could" end without a single Jew dying. Also, Jews lived there when it was Palestine. I dunno did they die when it became Israel? How are you arriving at the end of a concept being mass murder?
I think if Israel stopped trying to run itself as an ethnostate they'd be fine. I think there's an argument that the "concept" of what currently constitutes Israel may be too tainted to realistically save. Many unwilling to admit fault, apologize, and return what was stolen. And many unwilling to forgive them for doing it. It would take real concession and change. Something those in charge don't want. So the people both Israeli and Palestinian will continue to suffer for the gains of wealthy genocidal bigots.
Many Palestinians were killed or died in the transition when Israel was established.
I agree with you that Israel needs to change, and that they aren't going to change unless they are forced to change. But the Jewish people living in Israel will not leave peacefully. To "end" Israel is to kill a lot of Jewish people living there.
And the antisemites are counting on everyone making a distinction between the two.
Fuck that. Anti Zionism isn't antisemitism. Israel is a fascist state with no right to exist. Anyone who associates that fascist state to Jewishness is the true antisemite
It's a tough needle to thread
It really isn't as long as both parties are arguing in good faith and refraining from strawman arguments or other logical fallacies.
Sadly, even that is usually too much to ask for, as evidenced by your apparently good faith post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy of assuming that you can't argue that genocide of Palestinians is a bad thing without people agreeing with you by arguing that genocide of Israeli people would be super neat.
Of course, claiming that what other people say apart from agreeing with you that Palestinians shouldn't be murdered is the responsibility of you for some reason is in itself an association fallacy.
Come to think of it, ARE you arguing in good faith or are you just taking this chance to apply guilt by association without appearing to? 🤔
Anyway: NO it's NOT difficult to defend Palestinians without being antisemitic and benignly doing so does NOT make you responsible for antisemites agreeing with what you're saying and then adding a lot that you did NOT say.
It really isn't as long as both parties are arguing in good faith and refraining from strawman arguments or other logical fallacies.
How would you know? That's really my point. Antisemites are using this moment to inject their bigotey into the political discussion.
Come to think of it, ARE you arguing in good faith or are you just taking this chance to apply guilt by association without appearing to? 🤔
Case in point. I've called what Israel has been foing a genocide from the beginning. I think Netanyahu has committed crimes against humanity and should be deposed.
I also think Israel has a right to defend itself from Hamas, and a right to prosecute and root out terrorists.
For this, I have been called a bigot from both sides. And I completely understand, because you don't know if I'm a secret bigot trying to sound reasonable.
I'm not at all suggesting that it makes me responsible for the statements of bigots, nor am I suggesting that anyone else should feel guilty by association as ling as they are challenging the bigotry. If you march shoulder to shoulder with them then yes you are guilty by association. If you tap into their hatred to achieve your political goals, however benign your goals are, you are guilty by association.
And that's the hard part. I'm not suggesting it's hard not to be a bigot. It's hard to tell who is who from the sidelines.
If you see a beaten up homeless person in the street and they keep screaming something about "I'm gonna take over the united States government", the threat is basically idle and has to be taken in the context of what power he has, as a homeless perspn, as compared to a state like the US. Israel has all the power and is in no kind of substantial danger from Hamas or anyone else. It can erradiacte the entire place easily. Palestine is the homeless person screaming how he wants to replace biden while in fact he is beaten to the ground and survives on scrapes of food.
Big shout out to all the Jews protesting against israel they completely destroyed this narrative.
Are others going to label them as "anti-semitic Jews"? I feel like it would be ironic and ridiculous but I'm not that smart.
Wouldn't be the first time "self-hating Jew" has been used to shut down any kind of anti-Zionist critique. Bernie Sanders had his face shoved in that turd all through 2016. I remember hearing it tossed around since at least the Bush Era, when being against the Iraq War was framed as a form of anti-Semitism.
I've already seen it. I think the common term is "self-hating Jew".
"anti-Semitism" used to be a term with a lot of weight and serious connotations. Now, it's been misused and abused so often that the power it once had is gone.
If anyone who disagrees with the genocidal far right government of Israel is an anti-semite then, of course, the term will lose it's power to shame actual bigots. It should surprise nobody that actual anti-jewish bigots are coming out of the shadows.
This is one of those memes where you can't really be sure who it's talking to.
Agreed. One one hand, some people have been using 'antisemitic' (sorry I have no idea how to spell that, and autocorrect isn't helping lmao) to dismiss just about anyone who criticizes Israel's actions. On the other hand, there absolutely are people going around being blatantly antisemitic.
I'm assuming that's what you're talking about, but correct me if I'm wrong ofc lol.
Condemning the deaths of Palestinians is not inherently antisemitic
FTFY
Anti-zionism =/= anti-semitism.
Pro-Palestine =/= pro-Hamas.
Anti-Hamas =/= Pro-Israel.
Since October it's been a really easy concept to grasp. Hamas is a terrorist group that murdered and kidnapped a bunch (don't know the exact number something around 200+) of Israeli civilians, the IDF responded in a predictably overzealous way and have now killed somewhere in the neighborhood of 20,000 civilians in Palestine. Neither Hamas nor the IDF have a moral high ground here. They both need to stop killing civilians. Super easy.
Neither Hamas nor the IDF have a moral high ground here. They both need to stop killing civilians.
The one thing both have in common is refusal to take peace talks seriously. Hamas refuses to let go of their hostages, and Israel continues their bombing campaign against Hamas.
Its a difficult situation because these are the "adults" in the room. The civilians involved have little power at all.
Hamas did let some hostages go fwiw.
Both Hamas and the Israeli government do not want peace, though. They're on the same side in that. (Hence Israel sending cash and stuff to keep Hamas in power.)
Judaism =/= the Israeli government
I'd make this into a T-shirt but the amount of people that have no idea what ≠ means is too damn high.
some of the most chill, accepting, and compassionate religious people I know are jews. Funny how what those people all have in common is hating zionism.
Sadly they're not the ones running Israel right now :(
Jews who stand against zionism don't usually have a lot of motivation to live in Israel. It's a structural issue with the country.
There are some! At least some who stand against these atrocities. It's definitely less attractive a prospect, though.
"Those that shoot missles and kill civilians are responsible for their death regardless of circumstances."
"If you think I am criticizing Israel instead of Hamas then you are admitting you can't tell the difference - and that's a 'you' problem"
Antisemitism can be defined arbitrarily by Zionists. Criticizing Zionism is often labeled as antisemitic. You cannot win by playing this game.
The easiest is to ignore this label and look at the facts. If I am an antisemite for not wanting psychopaths to kill Palestinian children, and want said psychopaths to be justly charged for their crimes, then so be it, I am an antisemite. I don't care.
I say fuck Israel, not fuck the Jews. Not sure who's the target audience here
And if it’s all too complicated, you’re always free to STFU.
This was me for most of the time since this started lmao. I read a lot of news about it, but had pretty much no idea what was going on (still don't 100% ofc). No shame in STFU-ing :)
We've lost the art of stfu if you have nothing to offer, and apologizing or admitting you're incorrect or your opinion isn't defensible. Marc Maron does a bit in his most recent Netflix special. We used to say "oh man, I'm so stupid, how'd I miss that, you're right, sorry" .. there's no regular old stupidity anymore
Those PARTICULAR Jews suck!
Authoritarians don't want you to know this, but:
The people are not the state.
The state is not the people.
Nobody is born anywhere on purpose.
You can condemn the Israeli state without being a Nazi.
Some people can, others... well... i think the antisemitic comments are the point for some.
Did anyone else never notice Double D is pointing at a page that's double the width of the book and has been folded out?
My god can beat up your god, nuh uh, bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb
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