this post was submitted on 30 Dec 2023
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No Stupid Questions
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The signal to noise ratio has seemed particularly out of wack with Google lately. The amount of blog spam SEO nonsense that crops up into the top 4 results has been pretty noticeable.
I’m not sure it’s entirely a Google thing. Reddit’s decline has made it harder to find quick answers for, “My washing machine’s making this weird string of beeps?” Niche hobbies moving from forums to Discord chats means, “How do I safely remove a keycap without damaging the switch?” is becoming a pinned message in a server you have to hear about via word of mouth. Basically any technology troubleshooting topic has moved from a blog post / forum to a YouTube video. And a 10 minute long one at that. Gotta hit those higher ad tiers.
For what it’s worth, I’m starting the new year off giving Kagi a try. It’s a startup trying to make a paid search engine work. You get 100 free searches to give it a try. After that it’s $5/mo for 300 searches, or $10/mo for unlimited. I’m not sure I’ll sign up for it just yet, but it seems pretty nice. No ads, custom components for things like Stack Overflow and Reddit, and some other nice touches for people who care about search. Their image search actually has a “View Image” link in addition to the “View Page” link. It’s hard to quantify how “good” a search result is, but I’ve been pretty impressed with it so far.
The last part of your comment sounds like an ad straight out of those overlong YT videos.
Have Brands™ started astroturfing Lemmy yet?
I’m not completely sold on Kagi yet. I’m still in the trial period right now. But paid services can be a tough sell online. I figured I’d be up front about the costs rather than wait for the inevitable “$10 a month for search!?” comment.
I haven’t seen any obvious astroturfing yet, but your last paragraph really did have the vibe of a smoothly transitioned paid promotion. Not saying it was, but even the comments that you haven’t fully bought into it made it feel even more like one of the more honest paid promotions.
I read this same sentiment two days ago; Google doesn’t work for me.
Not sure what they are on about. I can find things I‘m looking for on Google in under a Minute 9 out of 10 times and I tend to use it quite heavily tbh…
if you're searching for something general, like, i dunno "dishwasher cleaner" or something, it spits out usable results.
but as soon as a query becomes technical in nature, like troubleshooting IT problems, it's a straight up nightmare.
the reason it's so bad at searching for anything very specific is their attempt to "figure out what you really mean":
and google does that by... ignoring what you typed and changing your search prompt behind the scenes without telling you and without any options to change it.
and putting it in quotes rarely improves searches anymore, only spits out more garbage.
point is: google is basically dead for any specific searches and only really works for searches that amount to "i want to buy thing. show me thing."
I had this weird hardware issue with my desktop and I could not find results for it on Google about a year ago, and I had searched for it a bunch of times previously as well and couldn't find anything relevant. My boyfriend searched for it on Google on his computer and found a result with the information we needed and i immediately fixed it.
Guessing my "custom" results were poisoned by something at some time, but it prevented me from finding the answer I needed, and I didn't think to log out at the time.
Super done with Google tbh
Yes, they have
I signed up for Kagi after the trial. I'm very subscription adverse, but this one was something I don't mind paying for.
That's because it is.
It's great that DDG doesn't track a users searches. It really is.
But at the end of the day, it's still just another ad platform profiting off of companies trying to sell you things.
And here you are complaining it seems like an ad, when someone's explaining an alternative ad-free search.
Just think about that for a moment.
Also, if we're being frank, DDG's results are damn near useless half the time.
It's like the opposite end of the SEO spectrum. Whereas Google just anchors onto certain keywords to regurgitate the same 4 listacles, DDG just sees your input for "my lawnmower won't start" and responds with "lawnmower huh? I dunno here's the history of John Deere or some shit, fuck off".
I tried using DDG but had even worse results than Google is having right now. I wish it was good, but my multi month trial of it was not impressive.
It was especially bad for programming. At least Google still finds what I need for that
Hard disagree with that, DDG searches are accurate about 90% of the time that I use it (which as a web dev is quite a lot) if they aren’t hitting Google with the same term rarely wields any better results.
I've had the same experience as you. The vast majority of the time, I can get the results that I want.
It also doesn't allow you to actually exclude keywords. Which can be utterly infuriating if you're looking for a specific entry in a franchise or a lesser used definition of something.
It's just handing your search off to Bing, and Microsoft just does what it does.
DDG pays Bing to use their API. DDG makes money by placing ads in the results. They do it kind of circularly using Microsoft's ad system, but they are separate.
Kagi is very good and I'm happy to be paying for it, but you were right in your second paragraph. It's not all google. Signal to noise in the web has gone way off. We need to throw out this Internet, it's gone bad
Story time! There is series by Tad Williams called "otherland" - it's a rift in the standard stuck in vr story.
Anywho. There is a group of hackers, weirdos and nerds who did not like the corporate vr experience and built their own (treehouse). In all honesty it's an expansion of the tor project.
But it's what I hope for. A place to end up in the web that's not saturated to hell and back by corporate interests, and you need to know someone for the ladder to be let down and you to be let in.
For me the fediverse has become that "alternative web" but of course it has its limits... But I'm too young to judge, google has been crap as long as I can remember. Regarding the alternative web, I could imagine a community run search engine operating on an alow list basis inorder to keep any capitalist crap out.
Also I'll have to read that book (:
Do read it. But also keep in mind the time the books where published.
Honestly I think the fedverse (or it's successors) will adopt some of the components of tor (or it's successors) and merge into something new.
google has been crap as long as I can remember.
Eh what's that sonny? I member when the term "Google" meant sumpin! Stomps off angrily waving his cane
I just started book 2 in the series, and so far I'm loving it, it feels so topical at the moment. Plus I really like Tad's writing. This series is the first I've read of his, but I'm deff gonna grab more of his work.
Fair warning. For me book 3 was a bit of a slog, but seeing everything come together in book 4 was worth it.
I'm about 60% through the first book, I can't get enough of it!
It's a machine learning epidemic. Now that blogspam can be automated in a way that Google can't even look for without penalizing a ton of sites because people write in a similar style to ML tools, search is basically fucked in its current form. Back to human hand curated webrings.
Also Kagi sucks worse than Google and DDG for a lot of things. I still pay for it, hoping it gets better, plus they have a lot of useful tools.
Yandex.com is where you'll find movies.
And porn. Google has recently became completely useless on that.
Yeah but it's owned by Russia
Oh I got this. You have to put it into diagnostic mode, and then it will flash lights at you, giving you the error codes in binary. I'm not kidding!
For more info you can lift up the top of the machine by unscrewing some screws on the back. There are lots of screws on the back, but only three or four of them attach the top. If you lift the top up you can push the drum back and then slide your hand into the space between the drum and the frame. There's a ziplock bag in there with the service manual, and it'll tell you how to spin the knob to enter diagnostic mode. On my Maytag I have to spin the knob R, R, L, R, not to quick, not too slow.
I was blown away when I learned this all. I was having a problem with my clothes not drying, but still the components seemed to be working. I was getting a specific error about one component, but when I tested it it was fine. In my case the problem was where the wires from that component plugged into the control board--it was just slightly loose! So I pushed it in and everything is nominal.
You’re my new favorite person in this comment section.
And this post, being on Lemmy, will be indexable by search engines!
I have a feeling it’s not unrelated to the billions-in-false-charges-for-ads-slash-youtube-ad-debacle.
Tl;dr: google made a billion dollars charging for ads no one saw and then discovered that happened. To avoid being sued they panicked and ensured ads were seen, which had lovely knock-on effects for most of the interwebz.
Remember “anti-trust” laws? Yeah me neither.
Having to join an entire discord server to just find out or download one thing is really, really painful
That's because everyone thinks they need to post all of their information to discord to get validation instead of maintaining open web accessible blogs that can be archived
I started using Kagi a few months ago and have been really happy with it. It's completely replaced Google search for me. I think it's saved me a lot of time and helped me avoid a bunch of advertising I otherwise would have been exposed to. Not being incentivized by advertising money like Google is really makes a difference I think. With Kagi you are the actual customer and search is the actual product, with Google search you are the product and the customer is whoever paid Google to insert advertising into your search results.
It is entirely a google thing. Reddit might've helped google hide its limp as it was declining, but it's google that encouraged websites to write blog spam for SEO, by their very creation of their SEO algorithm. Google has indirectly shaped the internet in this manner.
I remember crunching the numbers with Kagi a couple months ago and most of their plans aren't worth it, not unless you actually use it at the specified amount. However maybe the packages have changed now, I remember it being something like $5 for 300, $10 for 700 and $27 for unlimited.
It also doesn't block you when you run out of free searches when you have a package, instead they charge you like 2c per search. So you have to carefully feather your usage to maintain the value - don't use it enough and the cost per use is high, use it over your limit and the cost per use is high. Frankly, I don't want all that hassle, particularly with something I'm paying for.
With your new numbers, the $5 package is 1.67c per search, and you'd need to more than 600 searches for the $10 package to beat that rate. However, assuming 2c per search after your 300 in the $5 package, you would hit $10 after 550 searches. So, if the 2c per search is correct, you should upgrade to the $10 unlimited plan only if you're doing more than 550 searches.
I think they realized their price structure was confusing/annoying towards the end of last year. Now it’s just $5/mo for 300 searches or $10/mo for unlimited. (There’s also still an expensive $25/mo plan for early access to some of their LLM experiments apparently?) You got me curious and I couldn’t find any mention of per-search overage billing. This feature request thread from 2022 just makes it sound like Kagi search gets shut off.
I bouncing hard off of Kagi when they had the original pricing structure you described. Bringing back aughts era SMS overages or just mentally having to count searches doesn’t exactly found like a fun time. I’m going to give the $5 plan a try this month to see how far that gets me. $10/mo is still a tough sell for Internet search. If I really find it substantially better, I might convince my spouse into trying the two seat $14/mo unlimited “Duo” plan for a while.
Maybe paid search engines was the end goal all along...
Someone has to pay for it one way or another. It's just a matter if you want to pay with money or your personal data being supplied to advertisers.
Yep. If something is "free" for the user, then the user is the product
Well, if it's from a for profit corporation, anyways, that's typically the case. Either that or they're trying to onboard you for an upsell down the line.