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submitted 11 months ago by little_cow@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world

The Danish government will try to find legal means that will enable authorities to prevent the burning of copies of the Quran in front of other countries’ embassies in Denmark, Foreign Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen has said.

“The burnings are deeply offensive and reckless acts committed by few individuals. These few individuals do not represent the values the Danish society is built on,” Rasmussen said in a statement on Sunday.

“The Danish government will therefore explore the possibility of intervening in special situations where, for instance, other countries, cultures, and religions are being insulted, and where this could have significant negative consequences for Denmark, not least with regard to security,” he said.

Denmark and Sweden have found themselves in the international spotlight in recent weeks following protests where the Quran, the Islamic holy book, has been damaged or burned.

In a separate statement on Sunday, Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson said he had been in close contact with his Danish counterpart Mette Frederiksen, and that a similar process was already under way in Sweden.

“We have also started to analyse the legal situation already … in order to consider measures to strengthen our national security and the security of Swedes in Sweden and around the world,” Kristersson said in a post to Instagram.

Outrage in Muslim countries

This month, far-right activists have carried out a number of public burnings of Islam’s holy book in front of the Iraqi, Egyptian, and Turkish embassies in the Danish capital.

On Monday, two members of the ultra-nationalist Danish Patriots stomped on a copy of the Quran and set it alight in a tin foil tray next to an Iraqi flag.

Earlier this month in Sweden, an Iraqi citizen living in the country, Salwan Momika, 37, stomped on the holy book and set several pages alight.

The public burnings in the Scandinavian countries have sparked widespread outrage across Muslim countries, with Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, Iran, Morocco, Qatar and Yemen lodging protests in response.

Sweden and Denmark have said they deplore the burning of the Koran but cannot prevent it under their rules protecting freedom of expression.

The United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) earlier this month approved a resolution on religious hatred and bigotry following several burnings.

Pakistan and other Organisation of Islamic Cooperation countries backed the motion, along with a number of non-Muslim majority countries including India and Vietnam. The United States and the European Union opposed the resolution on the grounds it interfered with freedom of expression.

In his statement, Rasmussen added that whatever measure was taken “must of course be done within the framework of the constitutionally protected freedom of expression and in a manner that does not change the fact that freedom of expression in Denmark has very broad scope”.

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[-] Hazdaz@lemmy.world 77 points 11 months ago

Maybe acknowledge that if you want to attack or even kill someone for burning a stupid book, the problem lies with the attacker, not the book burner.

Fuck religion.

[-] Obsession@lemmy.world 75 points 11 months ago

I hoped it was clickbait, but it isn't. What the fuck Denmark.

[-] SorteKanin@feddit.dk 32 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

The Danish government will try to find legal means that will enable authorities to prevent the burning of copies of the Quran in front of other countries’ embassies in Denmark

Emphasis mine. This isn't some major restriction of free speech or anything, it's just a way to prevent idiots from trying to ruin diplomatic relations between Denmark and other countries.

[-] Obsession@lemmy.world 74 points 11 months ago

So someone who escapes from a fundamentalist Muslim country can't protest that regime in front of said country's embassy anymore?

Nah, still fucking stupid.

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[-] maporita@unilem.org 33 points 11 months ago

A law that prevents someone from burning a book counts as a major restriction on free speech as far as I am concerned. It's a book for gods sake. The fact that burning it causes offense is immaterial.. simply causing offense to a group is not sufficient ground to place a restriction on an act that otherwise harms no one.

[-] charonn0@startrek.website 19 points 11 months ago

It is a restriction on free speech, though, however you want to frame it. A free society should not countenance it.

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[-] Buffalox@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

The good news is that the burnings are still legal in front of danish embassies in Denmark. Which of course is nonsense, but why stress that it's in front of foreign embassies, that doesn't even make any kind of sense, it's the only kind of embassies there is. But that's how the government chose to put it!?

Instead og this diplomacy nonsense, giving in to fanatic muslims and undermining our democracy. We should rather invite them to a danish hygge meeting, with danish beer and traditional danish roast pork, and say they can bring their dogs if they want.

We shouldn't let religious fanatics dictate what we do in Denmark, that has zero impact and does zero harm to them. While they still have a death sentence on Salman Rushdie, and perform terrorist acts in Europe!!

This is a slippery slope that will never end, until we say enough is enough.

[-] Scubus@sh.itjust.works 4 points 11 months ago

Oh no, some people are burning paper outside my building. I guess it's time to declare war.

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[-] FlapKap@feddit.dk 14 points 11 months ago

Denmark doesn't have unrestricted free speech. Censorship is against the constitution but hate speech, inciting violence or defamation is illegal and until 2017 blasphemy was illegal. There is some legal basis for punishing speech that is bringing the country into danger or is severely insulting another nation. I am not a lawyer so I don't know if it's applicable or if it will hold up in court.

Note that the government does not want to ban burning books. Just prevent/punish doing it as a provocation against another country.

I also want to stress that I am not defending the Danish government or the book burners. I just want to bring some needed nuance to the discussion

[-] P1r4nha@feddit.de 4 points 11 months ago

Also there's presedence in a lot of countries that restrict protesting in front of embassies.

For instance in Switzerland in front of US and UK embassies. Not that I'm for that. I hope the police in Bern gets reigned in soon for their conduct.

[-] angrymouse@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago

Oil money my friend, oil money can buy everything.

[-] SuddenDownpour@lemmy.world 50 points 11 months ago

I'm an Ex-christian. Religion has provoked plenty of suffering against me and my family through my life. I want to have the right to burn a Bible. The same way, I want Ex-muslims to have the right to burn the Quran.

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[-] kokesh@lemmy.world 25 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

As stupid provoking those medieval idiots is, it definitely shouldn't be illegal. If I decide to start my grill with Quran in order to make me a dinner of pork chops, or draw Mohamed on piece of paper in order to pick up my dog's shit with it, it definitely shouldn't be illegal. Same way as saying Jesus is technically a zombie isn't illegal.

[-] Buffalox@lemmy.world 18 points 11 months ago

As stupid provoking those medieval idiots is, it definitely shouldn’t be legal.

I think you mean illegal.

[-] Blamemeta@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago
[-] angrymouse@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago

This guy technicallies

[-] AbidanYre@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

Based on the rest of your comment, I think you missed an "il" at the beginning there.

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[-] ziggurat@lemmy.world 13 points 11 months ago

I'm opposed to burning the Quran, but I am even more opposed to making it illegal to do so.

The wording quoted from the Danish politician by OP, assuming it is correctly quoted and translated sounds horrible and dystopian. Imaging making a law to make it illegal to do something that offends other people, or even offends other people from other countries. Now you have other people deciding on tummy feeling what is legal in your country. Absolutely disgusting.

Burning the Quran should continue to be legal, I just don't see why you would do that, or other books for that matter. There are way more price efficient ways to produce heat than book burning

[-] Pokethat@lemm.ee 3 points 11 months ago

Yes, this is a case where the carrot is better than the stick. I'm not danish (maybe a blueberry one though), but if I was prone to burning books and the government suddenly cracked down on that, maybe I'm also prone to burning constitutions?

[-] nomadjoanne@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago

I agree on principles, but they only want to prevent it outside of Muslim countries' embassies though.

Realpolitik. They probably just want to have good relations with these nations.

[-] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago

That really doesn't make it better. They are basically extending the border of another country within their own country and doing it not due to very valid concerns like security or traffic flows, they are doing it to appease a sect of sky-daddyism. I wonder how much more of their citizens they plan to give away to a foreign power to buy themselves "peace in our time".

[-] janus2 12 points 11 months ago

Honestly the main problem I see here is people setting fire to items in a public space without proper combustion containment.

Like, sure, burn a book if you feel like it. But you should coordinate with the local fire department and use an approved and setting-appropriate container like a burn barrel, chiminea, etc.

Safety first, folks :]

[-] Borger@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 points 11 months ago

Ex-muslim here. The Quran should not get special treatment in the eyes of the law from any other book.

I oppose hatred towards Muslims, but the religion itself isn't exempt from criticism, and yes, that does include idiots who want to set the book on fire to make some kind of stupid point.

I don't like it, but I don't like the world having to tiptoe around overly sensitive Muslims who think everybody should show the same respect to the book that they do. The outrage would be at nowhere near the same magnitude if it were the Bible. Grow the hell up and stop validating these dumbass book burners.

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[-] vaseltarp@lemmy.world 9 points 11 months ago

This is signaling exactly the wrong message to the violent protesters. They see "if we throw a tantrum they do what we want" it will lead to more violent protest.

The opposite reaction would be appropriate. Tell tgem "If you continue to be violent we will mock your prophet and your book even more". If those people really listen to the Quran this should stop the violence.

During Mohammeds time the Muslims would mock the gods of the polytheists. When the polytheists finally had enough and threatened to mock Islam if they don't stop, "Allah" revealed

Surah 6:108

˹O believers!˺ Do not insult what they invoke besides Allah or they will insult Allah spitefully out of ignorance. This is how We have made each people’s deeds appealing to them. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them of what they used to do.

[-] Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Honestly I am all for freedom of speech and am atheist, but I don't think burning books is a form of free speech that should be recognized.

I feel no matter the book, burning it is just low class and only done to fuel anger. It's more akin to hate speech than free speech.

There are plenty of other ways to get your point across, only 'bad guys' resort to burning books.

[-] HubertManne@kbin.social 6 points 11 months ago

I like your argument but I think I prefer the guy who says it should be a legal fire. Its more a property rights issue really. If you own the book and your burning it in a way that is legal then it should be as legal as burning a newspaper or whatever. I do think it should not be socially acceptable and especially as protest. People should look down on those who burn knowledge even if its a work of fiction like that.

[-] laylawashere44@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 11 months ago

Burning the Quran is an acceptable way to dispose of a copy in Islam. The protests really are about the intentions of the individual who are burning it.

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[-] charonn0@startrek.website 5 points 11 months ago

The freedom of speech isn't primarily concerned with the protection of uncontroversial or popular speech.

[-] dan1101@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago

If you delete a file containing the Quaran from your computer, is that bad too?

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[-] 5too@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

Leaving aside for the moment the free speech issues inherent here... if you want to control what someone does with a book after you sell it? You can't sell it. Lend it, rent it, whatever; but if it's sold, you've given up all right to determine what happens with it.

Don't want to invest in the infrastructure to do that? Then is it really that important to you?

[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I'll go ahead and say "just copy the German laws". §166 StGB:

Revilement of religious faiths and religious and ideological communities

  1. Whoever publicly or by disseminating content (section 11 (3)) reviles the religion or ideology^1^ of others in a manner suited to causing a disturbance of the public peace incurs a penalty of imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years or a fine.
  2. Whoever publicly or by disseminating content (section 11 (3)) reviles a church or other religious or ideological^1^ community in Germany or its institutions or customs in a manner suited to causing a disturbance of the public peace incurs the same penalty.

Historically speaking that section has been introduced after the 30 year war, when Lutherans and Catholics had it out for each other. It's why you don't see Lutherans calling Catholics Idolaters any more even though they still pray to Mary.

Apostasy, blasphemy, also religious critique etc. are all perfectly fine but if you're using religion as a vector of insult to disturb the public peace that's crossing the line. Burn all the Qurans you want just don't make a show out of it. Or print "The Quran, the holy Quran" on rolls of toilet paper and send them to public TV stations and mosques (actually happened).


^1^ "ideology" there is an iffy translation, what is meant is Weltanschauung. Say, Daoism is not a religion in the usual (German/western) sense but definitely a philosophy with deep epistemology and thus qualifies. So is Humanism.

[-] charonn0@startrek.website 8 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

One problem with this sort of law is that it only ever targets minority religious opinions. You'd never see a priest get prosecuted for telling atheists they deserve to burn in hell, for example.

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[-] willowisp_42@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

My friend sadly this won't involve the burning of religious books. You can even do it live or on tv. If you insult the religion or their believers or provoke them with something else, you could use § 166 StGB. For example something like "all muslims should burn like this book" or "the islam is straight from hell, so we burn it...". § 130 StGB or § 185 StGB won't help you either. And as long as he owns the book you can't use § 303 StGB.

So just the burning could happen in Germany, too.

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this post was submitted on 30 Jul 2023
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