89

Do we really don't have anything older before it that counts as a paid service/job being registered?

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] lvxferre@mander.xyz 109 points 1 month ago

This reminds me an experiment made with capuchin monkeys, where the researchers were using small discs as some sort of currency. They could use it to buy stuff like pieces of cucumber (they eat it, but it's meh), jell-o (they like it), grapes (they love it)...

One of the things that they reported is that a female exchanged sex for a disc. Then used said disc to buy a grape.

Conclusion: sex for goods is likely a human behaviour that predates humankind itself.

load more comments (16 replies)
[-] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 98 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

If you take “job” to mean “doing a thing in exchange for another thing”:

Allow me to narrate a brief historical reenactment:

Caveguy:

dragging cavedeer carcus somewhere

Cavegirl:

happens upon the scene

grunting (translation: damn that venison lookin’ tasty af)

Caveguy:

grunting (translation: it’s mine you can’t have it)

Cavegirl:

grunting, but seductively (translation: well, if we smash, can I have some?)

Caveguy:

aroused grunting (translation: hell yeah girl, you can stick around, I’ve been having the worst dry spell)

~fin~

[-] 0001@discuss.tchncs.de 40 points 1 month ago

This is cinema - Martin Scorsese

[-] Classy@sh.itjust.works 16 points 1 month ago

These Unga bunga bitches always sliding in my DMs trying to get free shit!

[-] memfree@lemmy.ml 52 points 1 month ago

It's not just us humans, chimps trade meat for sex: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/chimps-behavior-sex-news-animals

Yale taught monkeys about money, and yup, they traded money for sex. From archive of NYT article:

Further proof that the monkeys truly understood money: the monkey who was paid for sex immediately traded the token in for a grape.

[-] Adderbox76@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 month ago

ale taught monkeys about money, and yup, they traded money for sex. From archive of NYT article:

That was a fascinating read! Thanks!

load more comments (6 replies)
[-] mipadaitu@lemmy.world 48 points 1 month ago

It's a commentary on humanity and society.

There's no records or evidence for the first jobs, so it's mostly humor with a grain of truth. Most likely trading sexual favors for some benefit likely predates most other forms of trade (but it obviously depends on the exact definition of trade, profession, prostitution, etc.)

[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 34 points 1 month ago

Because courtship rituals show up before money and across species usually involve the male providing food to the female to demonstrate the males fitness.

Long before language, money, and lots of other shit had been invented, males have traded resources for sex.

In some species the female stays with the young and is unable to get food for herself, she has to rely on her mate providing food or her and the baby die.

[-] raef@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago

There was an experiment where the researchers introduced "money" to chimps that they could exchange for fruit treats. Some females almost immediately began trading sex for money

load more comments (2 replies)
[-] yuki2501@lemmy.world 25 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

More interesting is the origins of that phrase to designate prostitution.

Fortunately, I found an article in worldhistories.net, that shows the first documented time of this phrase. The person who coined the phrase was none other than Ruyard Kipling ("The Jungle Book"):

Lalun is a member of the most ancient profession in the world. Lilith was her very-great-grandmamma, and that was before the days of Eve as every one knows. In the West, people say rude things about Lalun’s profession, and write lectures about it, and distribute the lectures to young persons in order that Morality may be preserved. In the East where the profession is hereditary, descending from mother to daughter, nobody writes lectures or takes any notice, and that is a distinct proof of the inability of the East to manage its own affairs.

- On the City Wall, in In Black and White (Allahabad: A. H. Wheeler & Co., 1889), page 78

If you want to know about actual prostitution, we should go far back to ancient Mesopotamian texts.

According to "The Epic of Gilgamesh" (the most ancient epic in the world), the gods created a savage man, Enkidu, who lived in harmony with the animals in the woods. Gilgamesh wants to tame Enkidu, and is told to bring a "harimtu" (a "sacred prostitute") to him.

and he [Enkidu] possessed her ripeness. She was not bashful as she welcomed his ardor. She laid aside her cloth and he rested upon her. She treated him, the savage, to a woman’s task, as his love was drawn unto her.”

Later, as he regrets joining civilization, Enkidu curses the harimtu:

“I will curse you with a great curse… you shall not build a house for your debauch you shall not enter the tavern of girls…. May waste places be your couch, May the shadow of the town-wall be your stand May thorn and bramble skin your feet May drunkard and toper (ed note: someone who drinks alcohol to excess) alike slap your cheek.”

Researcher Gerda Lerner, in her article "The Origin of Prostitution in Ancient Mesoportamia" (Signs, 1986, pp. 245-6), says:

The nature of this curse tells us that the harimtu who mated with Enkidu lived an easier and better life than the harlot who has her stand at the town wall and is abused by her drunken customers.

This would confirm the distinction we made earlier between the women engaged in various forms of sacral sexual service and commercial prostitutes. Such a distinction was more likely to have existed in the earlier period than later.”

So yes, there were prostitutes in ancient Mesopotamia, the cradle of civilization.

EDIT: typo

[-] alekwithak@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago
[-] Jyek@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 month ago

Prostitution is not specifically gendered and sex for pleasure's sake is not specific to men. There could be male or female customers seeking male or female prostitutes.

load more comments (2 replies)
[-] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 23 points 1 month ago

I liked the analysis in HIMYM. It can't possibly be the world's oldest profession, because in order to exchange something of value for sex, you have to have obtained something of value. Like say this hypothetical first ever prostitute was exchanging blowjobs for berries, then berry gatherer was actually the first profession.

[-] XeroxCool@lemmy.world 18 points 1 month ago

Unless the offer was a blowjob for him to go get the berries.

[-] DeltaTangoLima@reddrefuge.com 10 points 1 month ago

Arguably, her giving the blowjob meant she got the berries

[-] MolochAlter@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago
[-] nomous@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

The berry purchaser is the real job creator.

[-] Crashumbc@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Did the berries tickle down?

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] djsoren19@yiffit.net 19 points 1 month ago

It predates human civilization, and likely even predates homo sapiens. Our great chimp ancestors were likely trading spare food for sexual favors, though whether you can consider it the oldest profession depends on your definitions.

[-] pathief@lemmy.world 13 points 1 month ago

It's hard for me to believe that hunter / food seeker isn't the oldest profession... But it's definitely up there.

[-] foggy@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Yo if you hunt and gather a little more and share it all you can fuck my cave wife

[-] Firipu@startrek.website 5 points 1 month ago

What's the last time you met a gatherer doing it as a profession and not a hobby?

Hunters are a little bit more common, but still, full time food hunters are rare.

Prostitutes on the other hand.

So as a simple saying used in a daily life, I can kinda see why it's used :)

[-] Zier@fedia.io 6 points 1 month ago

I can't answer that question, but I want to know why it's called the oldest profession when sex work is still illegal in most of the world. A profession is usually a legal job. And sex workers should be legal everywhere as a human right.

[-] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Profession doesn't mean legal. It's just as opposed to amateur. ie. You make enough money doing it for it to pay your cost of living.

But yeah it definitely should be legal, regulated, and unionized

[-] downpunxx@fedia.io 5 points 1 month ago

thievery was probably the worlds second oldest proffesion

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

Around here it is called world's oldest business.

[-] Montagge@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 month ago

The only thing I can think that would be almost as old is agriculture

[-] BlameThePeacock@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 month ago

Nah, prostitution pre-dates agriculture. Hunter-gatherer populations had men trading resources for sex.

[-] Montagge@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 month ago

That's what agriculture is almost as old as prostitution!

[-] PostiveNoise@kbin.melroy.org 3 points 1 month ago

There were probably professions that long predate history, and any of those are a bit hard to prove. There were 'shaman' in pre-history, and good shaman were quite possibly supported by their communities. There may also have been things like dedicated cooks. Trading sex for food however, is clearly hundreds of thousands if not millions of years old, so it's hard to argue that other professions came before it.

[-] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I'm imagining dinosaur hookers, out on the jungle corner in fishnets and halter tops, smoking cigarettes and shaking their tails at passersby.

Edit: look at that second word before anyone gets snarky about dinos and humans not coexisting. We can have fun that ignores reality, and there's nothing more fun than picking up a t-rex hooker in your Flintstonesmobile, taking her back to your cave and smoking some rock. It's a gneiss day.

[-] PostiveNoise@kbin.melroy.org 3 points 1 month ago

ok. I too am now imagining dinosaur hookers, and it's not even the weekend yet. RARHH!

[-] Classy@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 month ago

You're focused on the second to first word, I'm focused on that second to last one! Fantastic pun.

load more comments
view more: next ›
this post was submitted on 08 Jul 2024
89 points (94.1% liked)

No Stupid Questions

34888 readers
1692 users here now

No such thing. Ask away!

!nostupidquestions is a community dedicated to being helpful and answering each others' questions on various topics.

The rules for posting and commenting, besides the rules defined here for lemmy.world, are as follows:

Rules (interactive)


Rule 1- All posts must be legitimate questions. All post titles must include a question.

All posts must be legitimate questions, and all post titles must include a question. Questions that are joke or trolling questions, memes, song lyrics as title, etc. are not allowed here. See Rule 6 for all exceptions.



Rule 2- Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material.

Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material. You will be warned first, banned second.



Rule 3- Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here.

Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here. Breaking this rule will not get you or your post removed, but it will put you at risk, and possibly in danger.



Rule 4- No self promotion or upvote-farming of any kind.

That's it.



Rule 5- No baiting or sealioning or promoting an agenda.

Questions which, instead of being of an innocuous nature, are specifically intended (based on reports and in the opinion of our crack moderation team) to bait users into ideological wars on charged political topics will be removed and the authors warned - or banned - depending on severity.



Rule 6- Regarding META posts and joke questions.

Provided it is about the community itself, you may post non-question posts using the [META] tag on your post title.

On fridays, you are allowed to post meme and troll questions, on the condition that it's in text format only, and conforms with our other rules. These posts MUST include the [NSQ Friday] tag in their title.

If you post a serious question on friday and are looking only for legitimate answers, then please include the [Serious] tag on your post. Irrelevant replies will then be removed by moderators.



Rule 7- You can't intentionally annoy, mock, or harass other members.

If you intentionally annoy, mock, harass, or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.

Likewise, if you are a member, sympathiser or a resemblant of a movement that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of a group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you will be banned on sight.



Rule 8- All comments should try to stay relevant to their parent content.



Rule 9- Reposts from other platforms are not allowed.

Let everyone have their own content.



Rule 10- Majority of bots aren't allowed to participate here.



Credits

Our breathtaking icon was bestowed upon us by @Cevilia!

The greatest banner of all time: by @TheOneWithTheHair!

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS