this post was submitted on 05 Feb 2025
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[–] DreamlandLividity@lemmy.world 4 points 24 minutes ago* (last edited 12 minutes ago) (1 children)

You know what, let's give it a shot. 3 things I dislike.

  1. Equity based on gender or skin color. So many people pretend that somehow one average working class person should be put ahead in line compared to another, if the other person has the same skin color as some unrelated asshole slaver whose descendants still profit from their riches.

    Most of you would probably agree that a world where the majority are exploited by a few billionaires is not equitable just because the billionaires are diverse. So why push policies that pretend all is equitable as long as you give a few minorities preferential treatment.

    Not only does it not make any real sense, but more importantly, it is divisive. No person struggling in this f**ked up economy wants to hear they should be even worse of, because they have the same skin color as the billionaires exploiting them and they should feel ashamed for that. I would not be surprised if these ideas are intentionally pushed by the rich to divide the working class people and turn them on each other.

  2. Bringing people down in the name of Equity. Equity is definitely what we should strive for, but by lifting disadvantaged people up, not tearing "privileged" people down. The whole message that you should be ashamed for not being disadvantaged is ridiculous to me. Maybe you should be ashamed if you are in a privileged position and you refuse to use it to help the disadvantaged, but just be ashamed of privilege period is a wild take to me. We should be aiming to make everyone privileged enough that they don't have to fear being shot every time they see a cop, that they can make a living wage, ...

    If your movements/policies are hostile towards the very people whose support can help you most, then no wonder you can't make any progress and radicals like Trump take advantage of the divisiveness.

  3. Low quality diversity in media. Adding diverse characters to media should ideally be like adding trees. You add them when it makes sense without even thinking about it and don't add them when it doesn't make sense. We should work slowly and carefully towards that goal. Unfortunately, so many movies, shows and games have tried to awkwardly add diversity with no regard for how it negatively affects the enjoyability of the product. So your goal presumably was to make diverse people feel included and to normalize diversity in peoples mind. But the result for minorities often is that they repeatedly see character like them being badly and lazily written, either by having no proper character beyond being diverse or conversely feel like straight cis white character that just happens to mention they are diverse. On the other hand, the majority just sees these poorly made products and equate diversity and DEI with bad products. So failure on both goals. The answer is of course quality over quantity. It may take a while to get where we want to be, but it will get there without making things even worse with good intentions.

    By the way, there of course are great examples of well made diverse shows, but they are drowned out by the slop. My favorite example is the Owl house. The plot of the first episode is literally about being captured and placed into "the conformatorium" for being different and then escaping and dismantling the place. And it did this so smoothly I did not even realize there was any messaging in it until long after seeing it.

[–] hesusingthespiritbomb@lemmy.world 1 points 55 seconds ago

I appreciate your comment. I feel that DEI in its current form has a lot of things to hate about it. However I usually don't say anything because I'm worried someone will just call me a Nazi or something.

I'm a Jewish democrat, but as a white man I feel like I'm basically guilty of original sin in these types of conversations.

[–] Punchshark@lemmy.ca 24 points 1 hour ago (1 children)
[–] Whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world 6 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Can also use "Elon" for the E.

[–] Shapillon@lemmy.world 4 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Trump can't remember his name anyway

[–] theangryseal@lemmy.world 3 points 33 minutes ago (1 children)

When Enlong goes to Mars, can you believe it? They said on Twitter, well, now it’s X but you still tweet. They banned me before Lonnie bought it. They said, “When Eenlin goes to mars, which is a planet by the way. Like Earth but orange. Orange, don’t get me started. They say I’m orange. Do I look orange? Maybe the radical left will call me Marsolini. You people are beautiful. But mars is a planet and Erod is gonna take us there folks. I’ll be the president of mars if you can believe that. Kennedy wanted to go to the moon. Ellen wants to go to mars. Very smart people, with the rockets. They can land them now. Rockets is very powerful stuff. My uncle, very smart, good genes, he said, “Donald, rockets is very powerful stuff.” I always thought that, but who knew? Now everybody is talking about it.

[–] Shapillon@lemmy.world 1 points 17 minutes ago

Lmao, I was thinking about Eric but this is way better.

[–] damnedfurry@lemmy.world 1 points 8 minutes ago* (last edited 14 seconds ago)

This isn't a good argument in general--you can call anything anything, even if it doesn't fit what it actually is. This would be like accusing someone of being anti-democracy for opposing the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea), or anti-life for opposing the "pro-life" movement.

Whether the label is accurate in any given circumstance doesn't change the fact.

[–] nifty@lemmy.world 10 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (1 children)

This is my sad hill to die on, I guess, despite my personal feelings on why anti-discrimination across all aspects is important for society. But after reading some informed perspectives, I think I get where some of the DEI pushback is coming from.

It’s not about diversity, equity or inclusion individually, but DEI as a concept, ie as an actionable form of some underlying ideology. It doesn’t matter if the practitioners of DEI may not subscribe to any underlying ideology, the fact is that DEI opponents are unconvinced about the allegiances of DEI practitioners in special contexts, like the military.

I personally don’t care about having DEI in corporate or education contexts, but i think the concern there is that if the public thinks one way, then it will question why the military/govt doesn’t want to. So, I think I get why they removed DEI/CRT from corporate and education as well.

Per my understanding, the pushback is coming jointly from the military, and the main point of contention was the CRT-derived idea of “inherent racism” or “whites as oppressors”. For example,

CRT scholars argue that the social and legal construction of race advances the interests of white people[9][12] at the expense of people of color,[13][14] and that the liberal notion of U.S. law as "neutral" plays a significant role in maintaining a racially unjust social order,[15] where formally color-blind laws continue to have racially discriminatory outcomes.[16]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory

Here’s an article which says why DEI was necessarily started (the writer is an academic)

DEI policies and practices were created to rectify the government-sanctioned discrimination that existed and systemic oppression that persists in the United States.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/beyond-the-cubicle/202411/what-we-get-wrong-about-the-dei-backlash-narrative

You have to appreciate why some part of the American armed forces pushes back on these ideas when your CO may be white, and you a minority. There are practical considerations to having such ideas in the back of your mind when you’re supposed to act without question and as a unit.

Here’s some context for reading https://starrs.us/dei-how-to-have-the-conversation/

Here’s another perspective from a Stanford professor, https://amgreatness.com/2024/03/25/will-dei-end-america-or-america-end-dei/

Edit to clarify, I am not saying that we shouldn’t have anti-discrimination policies across different aspects of being a person. I am saying this is why some people don’t like/want DEI or CRT (which are distinct and separate from the existing anti-discrimination policies). And yes, I know the military has issues regarding race and sex discrimination. But I think people can address those without DEI or CRT.

[–] LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 45 minutes ago* (last edited 42 minutes ago)

Segregation and hate raise crime, wealth disparity, and breed unhappiness. The best way to dispell racism is through education and integration of all the people's. That is what DEI is about. Slowly they all learn they are not much different and they blend together until all is forgot. So why does someone want it gone when it will cause only problems long term one may ask? Because it is easier to divide and conqueur using hate than education. CRT is taught to lawyers in college, anyone who thinks it is being taught to their kids has been fed lies and likely doesn't know what it is. So someone divides the population by blaming all problems on a specific people, keeps repeating everything being their fault, and you build hate. Block efficiency in the current government, blame the peoples struggles on the chosen group of hate. Keep blowing in those flames and spread the hatred far and wide until the hate for those people means more to the majority than their own wants. Once you have that majority vote and get in then your sink your anchor, and have 2 options. Unite the people by using a war with a foreign power and in the midst use executive powers during the state of emergency to make the presidency all powerful with no intention of giving up that power, or option 2, strain the economy and stoke the hatred until a civil war breaks out, and declare the emergency powers the same. Either way the reason to attack DEI was always the same, to gain power without reguard to how many people get hurt along the way. Racism and sexism are weapons being weilded by politicians manipulating the people's priorities. They control the media, the Treasury, the military, they bought the judges and now we go the way of Turkey and Russia. A dictatorship is being born, the question left is just what will be the state of emergency used to grab the rest of the power to ensure the legislative branch s is powerless to take the powers back after 90 days

[–] ThirdConsul@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 hour ago (6 children)

As far as I understand, DEI as a policy in a university or workplace means giving place to a candidate because not of their merits or test scores, but because of their race or background.

Isn't that racism?

Be gentle, am not USian.

[–] LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 22 minutes ago* (last edited 20 minutes ago) (1 children)

Often times merit is viewed differently. If 2 students both have a 4.0 GPA and 1 has more extra curriculars, and the other had to work instead because they come from a poorer family and needed to help support the family, which has more merit? If being able to stay after every day for practice and afford travel expenses for such means you have more merit, then the rich will always have the advantage to appear with more merit. I would say the person who worked 30 hours a week while maintaining a 4.0 GPA has worked harder and overcome higher odds.

There is more to merit than just numbers in my opinion. Some of it does appear like racism from the outside because if the average black family has less opportunities and you try to give more opportunities to new generations to help close the wealth gap, then you are being called racist by your initial definition.

There are valid points on both sides. DEI in my opinion helps integrate races, sexes, cultures, religions together which provides long term benefits and disincentivizes hatred. If you never come in contact with someone, it is easier to hate them. Easier to commit crimes against them. Ultimately a big portion of DEI is about educating the population to get along with and accept those who may appear or act differently than you do. It may appear easier for an African American to get into Harvard, but they are still less than 7% of the population there while being over 12% of the U.S. population total. There are other factors always at play standing in the way of comparing 2 people just off a single number.

[–] ThirdConsul@lemmy.ml 1 points 10 minutes ago

opportunities to new generations to help close the wealth gap

So... New age trickle down economics instead of making stronger labor law and helping workers take part of the wealth stolen by the rich?

Thank you for the explanation. It was informative, even if some of it sounds... irrelevant?

It may appear easier for an African American to get into Harvard, but they are still less than 7% of the population there while being over 12% of the U.S. population total.

It's harder for African American folks to go to Harvard because of wealth disparity as you explained, but the suggestion there should be a proportional number of races in Harvard is (benevolently) racist.

[–] djsoren19@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 10 minutes ago

The biggest issue with this take is that merit/test score is still the biggest factor. For example, a law firm is not passing over well-qualified white candidates to hire unqualified black candidates, they're just trying to hire more well-qualified black candidates because they're currently an all-white firm. Nobody is ever getting a job as an act of charity, and typically it just helps to avoid implicit hiring bias. To go back to the example, why has the law firm become all white? Well the first two partners were white, and even if they aren't offensively racist they still have enough internal bias that they only hired other white workers. Like in this example, most DEI initiatives are about reducing existing internal biases.

[–] meliaesc@lemmy.world 3 points 20 minutes ago

DEI is having a job fair at a school for the deaf, it's having unisex bathroom stalls, it's allowing religious/traditional holiday celebrations, it's training against racism. Every person hired is still qualified, but the company expands their hiring practice and their culture.

[–] Sturgist@lemmy.ca 1 points 37 minutes ago

US (and many other nations) corporate and education systems have long given preferential treatment/selection to white employees and students, to the point where the more qualified candidate was passed by due to their ethnicity. There's further issues that stem from the same sources, such as banks refusing to loan to Afro-Americans at a disproportionate rate, even with high wages and a more stable income, being refused even an interview because your name doesn't sound white enough despite being the most qualified applicant, etc etc etc.

DEI being implemented in a way that chooses non-white, women, differently abled, or LGBTQ+ simply to check a box and have diversity to point to is a real issue, but these places weren't ever really interested in leveling the playing field. They were concerned about optics. Like the 90s movie/tv cliché of the group of popular pretty girls having the one "fat and ugly" friend in the group to show that they're inclusive, to make themselves look and feel better.

DEI if implemented properly strips the unconscious and systemic bias in American (and other countries) systems to overlook better candidates for white, straight men.

[–] badmin@lemm.ee 1 points 41 minutes ago* (last edited 40 minutes ago) (1 children)

There is a manifesto that is literally titled the "The Post-Meritocracy Manifesto" which a lot of people unironically agreed with, at least when those were hot topics a few years ago.

So any attempt at pretending that there isn't an anti-meritocracy angle to this would be disingenuous to say the least.

That same person behind the manifesto is a primary figure in introducing CoC's to software projects btw.

[–] sus@programming.dev 1 points 11 minutes ago

I was going to say this sounds a lot like the conservative strawman that postmodernism means the total rejection of objective reality.

Then I read the post-meritocracy manifesto and wow some of those "our values" bullet points are facepalm worthy.

[–] Olgratin_Magmatoe@slrpnk.net 2 points 48 minutes ago

Diversity refers to the presence of variety within the organizational workforce, such as in identity and identity politics. It includes gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, disability, age, culture, class, religion, or opinion.

Equity refers to concepts of fairness and justice, such as fair compensation and substantive equality. More specifically, equity usually also includes a focus on societal disparities and allocating resources and "decision making authority to groups that have historically been disadvantaged", and taking "into consideration a person's unique circumstances, adjusting treatment accordingly so that the end result is equal."

Finally, inclusion refers to creating an organizational culture that creates an experience where "all employees feel their voices will be heard", and a sense of belonging and integration.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity,_equity,_and_inclusion

[–] conartistpanda@lemmy.world 3 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (1 children)
[–] Schadrach 1 points 43 minutes ago

That explains Trump's problem with it. He can't stand the idea he'd be the bottom.

[–] Fedizen@lemmy.world 3 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

The alternatives to DEI are:

Conformity Inequity Exclusion

[–] Oyml77@lemmy.today 4 points 59 minutes ago

Rearrange the letters to I, C, and E, and they are fully in support.

I Oppose Deathcamps, Extermination, and Invasion (aka: the nazi f' Elon and the Felon's policies)

[–] _lilith@lemmy.world 48 points 4 hours ago (3 children)

Same thing as when old people said they were against Antifa or antifa was causing violence. Anti Fascist. You don't support the Anti Fascists. Are you ok with the Fascists then? Shuts the boomers up because they remember daddy fought the Fascists even if their lead addled brains can't remember what that is

[–] ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world 1 points 22 minutes ago

Unfortunately, they'll just claim it's a "newspeak" term...

[–] SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world 14 points 2 hours ago

It's not civil rights, it's woke

It's not anti intellectualism, it's anti woke.

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[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 8 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (1 children)

Are you sure it's not Democrats, Education and Immigrants?

[–] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

More like Democracy (Jan 6), Elections (Voter-Roll Purges, and other forms of Voter Suppression), and International Cooperation (Paris Agreement Withdrawl)

[–] DarkFuture@lemmy.world 2 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Or you could ask them if they know what DEI stands for.

Spoiler Alert: They don't.

They love hating acronyms and nicknames repeated by their media sources that they know literally nothing about.

[–] djsoren19@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 9 minutes ago

They know what it stands before, but if you ask them to drop the mask they'll start saying racial slurs.

[–] RamenJunkie@midwest.social 27 points 4 hours ago (5 children)

Reminds me of the "Lets Go Brandon" crap.

Like, if you really dislike Biden, just say "Fuck Joe Biden.". I have zero issue saying "Fuck Trump," because, fuck trump.

Locally in Illinois there were also these signs everywhere that said "Pritzker Sucks" in huge letters, then at the bottom in tiny print "the life out of small business."

Like seriously, I am less disgusted by your stance, than I am about your pussy ass lack of conviction.

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