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This made me physically ill watching. This also proves 2 things.
First, don't let these fuckers on your property without a signed warrant. They can't do anything if you stand your ground like these people.
2nd, the police will not protect you. Even the cops on the phone told them just hand her over.
Stand your ground, ask for a signed warrant and don't listen to their fake ass threats of harboring.
Properly signed JUDICIAL warrant.
They can't do anything if you stand your ground like these people
No, they still can. It's not legal (for whatever that's worth these days), but they can absolutely just bust down your door anyway. We need to start treating them like they lawless criminals they are.
The system will not save you, at least not immediately. You might get let go later, after they've sufficiently punished your resistance, but that's it.
Also, know your damn rights. Notice that they didn't leave until she specifically said that they did not have permission to be on her property.
Law enforcement is considered to have implicit permission to come to your house, provided you have a route of access that is publicly accessible, like a sidewalk or a driveway (that isn't gated). But that implicit permission is overridden if you explicitly withdraw permission. It's good that they knew not to let them in without a warrant (though they didn't have to open the door, or even answer it), but you also need to say "You do not have permission to be on my property." No matter how much you cuss them out, if you don't say it, it doesn't count.
There is an exception for cases of "hot pursuit," like if they see somebody kill someone and run into a house, they don't need a warrant. But there's a lot of restrictions on that and they're probably not going to bother trying to get your consent in the first place if they have that.
Obviously that only goes as far as the law applies. Unrelated, but another right you should know is the right to bear arms.
There is an exception for cases of "hot pursuit," like if they see somebody kill someone and run into a house, they don't need a warrant.
Just to clarify, the person doesn't have to have murdered someone. They just have to be a suspect of a felony. The officers have to have reasonable suspicion of the felony and have to have continuously chased them to the residence. This is called exigent circumstances, which allows for limited exceptions to the 4th amendment. Other such exigent circumstances include reasonable suspicion of imminent harm of an occupant of the residence, or destruction of evidence of a crime (does not have to be a felony crime).
The Harboring laws vary state to state, so know your local laws. In Minnesota where this happened, they were not at legitimate risk of a harboring charge. The only crime they had reason to think she was suspected of was illegal entry into the US (a misdemeanor, btw), and they had reason to believe that she was actually a legal resident as she provided her id to them. Without actual knowledge of a crime or reason to suspect a crime had been committed by her (which again, any initial suspicion was subsided by the ID), they could not be convicted of harboring. Given that, the 4th amendment holds sway and they would need a judicial warrant for the address she was occupying in order to enter without consent of the owners of the residence.
Everything that happened here was likely legal from all parties, even if the ICE agents were a bit passively threatening. The one exception may be if they actually entered their backyard, especially within the gated area without permission (the guy says they were going around back, but I didnt see any agents approaching or crossing their property from the back, so I cant confirm). That would still be criminal trespass on the agents then. They only have implicit permission to enter the curtilage of the property and approach via the most direct route to the publically accessible door to talk to the residents. This is the knocking doctrine. They have as much right to enter the property to knock on your door as any other private individual. But no more right than that without a warrant.
Is holding their guns on her property not some sort of threatening issue? No warrant, no permission, and brandishing a weapon?
Unfortunately, the police are often a lot of latitude on their conduct related to "officer safety". For example, there's a lot of what would otherwise be unlawful commands that have been carved out specifically in the name of officer safety. Such as asking a driver to "exit their vehicle", telling detainees to "keep hands visible and out of pockets", telling bystanders "do not approach my investigation" or "stands where I can see you", etc.
The latitude given is a recognition that they are ostensibly agents acting in the interests of the state and that their role comes with inherent risks in the course of performing their job that they and the state have an interest in mitigating. As such, they should be able to take minimally invasive measures to control the behavior of those involved with or near their active investigations to protect themselves. Given that, without them issuing an active threat of unreasonable violence (like "say that again and I'll kill you"), simply having their hands on their weapons, or unholtering them when approaching a residence with limited visibility that they otherwise don't have the authority to order everyone out of is probably well within the latitude given to law enforcement.
I actually thought the cops were going to arrive to maybe mediate until a warrant was available, just to help de-escalate.
The cops were never not going to side with ICE though.
Here's another angle. If what they were doing was legal and by the books, they would already have a judicial signed warrant. All this bullshit they scream about getting the warrant...or it's on the way, is complete bullshit. There is no judicial warrant, and there will not be a judicial warrant issued to enter your property because almost every one of these people they are after are not committing a crime that justifies an instant bench warrant.
How the hell do you even verify a warrant? I still wouldn't consent to a search. I wouldn't resist, sure, but I ain't opening the door.
This slide presentation from ACLU Minnesota covers that, as well as other essential know-your-rights information. Share it around with those who may need it.
https://www.aclu-mn.org/app/uploads/2017/03/ice_kyr_master_updated_4.15.pdf
Short version: make sure it's from a US District Court and signed by a judge, not an immigration officer.
Wtf even is an ICE warrant?
Seems like it holds absolutely no authority???
It's internal DHS paperwork masquerading as something with the force of law. So, yes.
should be illegal to make that look like a legal warrant.
Should have giant fucking disclaimer at the top
THIS IS NOT A LEGAL WARRANT
Stand your ground, ask for a signed warrant
This is the best we have for now, but a month ago they weren't shooting people in the streets, I think they're up to 5 now. I suspect they'll be busting doors in before midterms hit.
They are busting doors in now.
All this and Trumps approval rating is still above 40%. Says alot
Those 40% either never heard of this or already dismissed it as fabricated. These people don't see the same news as you.
Don't discount the significant percentage of Americans that are perfectly aware of this and approve of it.
The 40% think they are in the fascist in-group. Many are finding out now they are actually in the out-group.
Funny thing about that. Happens to all the in-groups at some point, at all levels.
Ask Caesar if he was in the in-group.
Exactly. That and the "they came for us" poem is too Nazi/Germany coded for a lot of folks, and they fail to see how it applies.
I'll go as far as to say that 40% of everyone has never been bullied, or did/does try to avoid it by conforming.
This was a lesson I learned at age 9. You get bullied for whatever reason, so you try and change your behavior on the basis of the bullying. Hair, clothes, accent, likes, dislikes, whatever. The following week, the reason you get bullied changes or you outright get bullied for changing. Why? It's about power, exercising that power, and abusing others; the bully has a bottomless pit somewhere in their psychology and abuse makes them feel better about it. It was never about the stated reason. You can never make this stop by accommodation, and by all accounts, can only make things worse.
The thing is, it's really impossible to come to a logical conclusion of what the word "significant" represents in your reply. What does a "significant percentage" mean to you?
I'm not saying that there aren't some Americans out there with really shitty views, but how do you actually decide what percentage of the population they are? What's the end result of your statement here? What's the point of you making this comment here?
Idk, I'm just exhausted by these types of statements in general. These "don't forget that a lot of people are terrible!" suggestions from the sidelines. These "why are you upset, it's not surprising!" statements... as if there's any insight here.
I'm fucking frustrated too. I just think that the first step to becoming evil or indifferent to evil is believing that that's just how most people are.
For me at least, I'm wanting to focus our efforts beyond the goal of simply educating the unaware. A huge amount of effort over the last 8+ years has been in "awareness". That if we simply made people aware of the bad stuff, that they'd correctly see it as bad and would want to take action.
It's an entirely different problem we face when people are aware of the bad stuff and either don't care or actively support it. The 'solution' can't simply be awareness campaigns and the hope that people will react the way we want them to. We have to do something actually effective.
This is it. There are certainly some that support it but most just deny outright the possibility that it's real. We've fallen so far so fast that they just refuse to believe it.
That's either the idiots who don't follow politics and then there's the Nazis. That accounts for anything over 2%.
This is some straight up NAZI shit for real.
Yall got any of them ~~jews~~ native Americans in your attic?
regular people trying to earn honest money, even with dogshit wages--and these are the people they're trying to convince you are the "terrorists"
I've seen this somewhere before... In a history textbook, I think...
These Brown Shirts think they won't be given the "Night of the Long Knives" treatment.
Props to that woman for not giving into the fear and standing her ground.
We're going to need a lot of people like her
Its... not entirely clear if the homeowner woman initially invited the doordash woman in, or if the doordash woman more or less barged her way in...
But... yeah.
This whole situation is beyond fucked.
The Gestapo is here, and they're coming to your house next.
... What will you do?
How will history judge that?
Is there some kind of immediate legal aid number you can call if something like this is happening?
I think her call to the police was correct. They did nothing, but it's possible they could have sent someone to at least mediate and deescalate while a warrant was coming through (if one was ever going to arrive). Also they could verify these are actual law enforcement people. With people running around masked and no badges and unmarked cars how the fuck would you know otherwise.
But after that having a lawyer on the phone seems like the next ideal step?
Is there some kind of immediate legal aid number you can call if something like this is happening?
No, not unless you know a cell of armed anarchists with a hotline, 80s horror movie animal masks, and a 'party' van.
Help! Government! Save me from the government!
No. No there's no help line when the government is fully armed and fully tyrannical. Everyone else's hands are tied.
The woman homeowner screaming so intently and so loudly was actually the most important thing that happened.
Because it attracted the general community, who slowly, but surely, began to filter in, then crowd in, with whistles, amplifying the general call to respond, essentially intimidating ICE by way of their being too many witnesses and potentially starting to outnumber them.
There's no fucking hotline, there's only people with a sense of duty to each other, trustworthy neighbors.
Here's the actual legality of the situation:
If ICE doesn't have a signed, JUDICIAL warrant, which they present to the homeowner, not an Administrative warrant, which they can auto produce for themselves...
... they're not allowed in the house.
Almost everything ICE is doing is completely illegal.
You can get a signed Judicial warrant, and specifically go after a specific person.
You cannot randomly pull people out of their delivery cars because they are brown.
They could possibly stop her and her family and nab them out of the car, if they specifically had a signed Judicial warrant for specifically her or her family (who was in the car with her)... but they almost never do, which means almost everything they are doing is illegal, making them actually a well organized and government backed criminal organization.
Help! Government! Save me from the government!
That's not what I meant. I meant like does the ACLU or other organization have some number you can call if you think something illegal is happening to you by the government.
Of course the Government wouldn't have anything.
No, not unless you know a cell of armed anarchists with a hotline, 80s horror movie animal masks, and a ‘party’ van.
This reminds me of the cafe scene from the Great Escape. That's gotta be really satisfying for those French dudes.
This reminds me of NOTHING except FREEDOM!
-People with Don't Tread On Me Stickers who get Upset when you call them Nazis!
On the reddit thread yesterday (I had to go check because this video was so disturbing to me), someone said she was one of the neighbors who heard all the commotion and a bunch of neighbors came and escorted the Dasher to safety. So I'm clinging to that.
are you there yet, America?
10/10 would burrito the baby & doggo in bulletproof vests.
Wow the news by now is just like opening my world war 2 history book on page ten.