this post was submitted on 19 Aug 2025
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[–] But_my_mom_says_im_cool@lemmy.world 13 points 9 months ago (5 children)

What liberals opposed this? It’s weird that liberal is now a word Americans use to mean whoever they dislike. I know the right loves ICE but what liberal does?

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 28 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

From Wikipedia:

Many Democratic politicians, such as Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota and former Vice President Kamala Harris of California, believe that ICE should be reformed rather than abolished. Harris stated that Democrats should "critically re-examine ICE" and "think about starting from scratch" with American immigration policy, while Senator Bernie Sanders stated that Democrats should instead encourage Trump to work with them on "a national program which deals with this serious issue."

  • That was about 7 years ago.
  • Even Bernie opposed abolishing ICE.

He used the word absolutely the correct way.

[–] Auntievenim@lemmy.world 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Hey look at that, more evidence of bernie being a spineless lapdog for the exact same powers he claims to oppose. This certainly proves the point about abolishing ice being wrong and doesnt show exactly how liberals allowed this to happen.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 1 points 9 months ago

Bernie wasonly good in the sense that he radicalized a bunch of folks.

[–] Bartsbigbugbag@lemmy.ml 22 points 9 months ago

Literally every single democratic politician in office

[–] ayyy@sh.itjust.works 20 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Obama and Biden had full, 100% unchecked authority to shut down ICE but they didn’t.

[–] lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com -2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

liberal is now a word Americans use to mean whoever they dislike

Americans? NPR, ProPublica, Gallup, Vox didn't get that memo. Maybe online echo chambers that like dividing the left?

Reality check.

articles using liberal as left

The dictionary
progressive senses of liberal

liberal

adjective

  1. favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.
    • Synonyms: progressive
    • Antonyms: reactionary
  2. (often initial capital letter), noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.
  3. free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant.

    a liberal attitude toward foreigners.

    • Synonyms: unprejudiced, broad-minded
  4. open-minded or tolerant, especially free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.
    • Antonyms: intolerant
  5. characterized by generosity and willingness to give in large amounts.

    a liberal donor.

    • Synonyms: lavish, unstinting, munificent, openhanded, charitable, beneficent
  6. given freely or abundantly; generous.

    a liberal donation.

[–] JcbAzPx@lemmy.world 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

No, we're just adopting the definition the rest of the world has for it.

[–] lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I'll take NPR, ProPublica, Gallup, Vox, and the way people actually talk around me over online zealots in denial about shit printed right in front of them.

[–] JcbAzPx@lemmy.world 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I think you haven't been paying attention if you think those publications are using your definition.

[–] lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com 1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

You must have willful illiteracy or strong delusion: liberal is often written in opposition to the right or as synonymous with the left.

It's pretty clear with Gallup. On leftward expansion of young women, they express the spectrum of political views from liberal to conservative & from left to right as synonymous. The plot of responses to

How would you describe your political views -- very conservative, conservative, moderate, liberal or very liberal? % Liberal/Very liberal

shows

Women aged 18 to 29 today are more liberal than young women in the past on specific issues

which means

A Sharp Left Turn in Young Women’s Policy Preferences

The other articles consistently agree with that language.

We can see it in common language: when the right gloats about owning the libs, they're not talking about owning themselves. They're saying "the libs" are not right, ie, left. American leftists refer to themselves that way, too.

You're in serious denial to contradict plain observations smacking you over the head everyday. With that kind of invulnerability to information & inability to update beliefs according to evidence, you might as well be a religious fundamentalist: you think the same. Not a compliment. Work on yourself.

[–] blarth@thelemmy.club -5 points 9 months ago (3 children)

You must understand, the Russian and Chinese agents who seek to divide us are now turning Democrats against each over by bisecting them into “the left” and an ancient definition of “liberals” that would include George Bush Sr among other right wing characters.

That what the aim of these posts is. Any time you see “the left” pitted against “liberals”, you can safely ignore whatever bullshit else is on the page.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 13 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Are these Russian and Chinese agents who want to divide "us" (who do you mean with "us"?) In the room with us right now?

Any time you see “the left” pitted against “liberals”, you can safely ignore whatever bullshit else is on the page.

I guess I can ignore about 150 years of history then, huh? Liberalism is a right-wing ideology, homie.

[–] lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com -2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Liberalism is a right-wing ideology, homie.

Liberalism

The doctrine of liberalism considers personal freedom to be the most important goal.

The pursuit of personal freedom is right-wing? I didn't know that. I still don't know that!

Does the left-wing oppose personal freedom as a top priority?

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I don't know what source that is and I don't want to open that link again.

Liberalism also has the guarantee of private property as another "most important goal", which is why the ideology is so in favour of capitalism.

Also, liberals mostly focus on negative freedom, i.e. freedom from inhibitions, while e.g. leftists focus on freedom to do something.

So, yeah. Focusing on the freedom to squeeze your tenants for rent, destroy the environment, exploit your fellow humans, etc. is right wing.

If you really want to understand the "left-right" political framework, I can't recommends the channel "what is politics" on youtube enough. This video should be a short intro to the topic, while this one goes into more detail.

[–] lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com -1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

if by scotsman

No, you don't get to decide which personal freedoms count & which don't in what they stand for: they stand for personal freedoms.

Liberalism is broad, and the linked site on party classifications shows it's neither left nor right wing, though more specific subclassifications can be placed somewhere. Broadly

it favours free markets, free trade, limited governments, low taxes and private property (economic liberalism) as well as equality for all citizens under the law, civil rights, secularism and freedom of speech and religion.

You're neglecting subclassification

Social liberalism: Social liberal parties stress civil and human rights and favour a social market economy.

which is leftist. Leftism is the pursuit of equality/egalitarianism.

Let's not pretend conservative liberalism or neoliberalism is the only liberalism.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 2 points 9 months ago

No, you don't get to decide which personal freedoms count & which don't in what they stand for: they stand for personal freedoms.

I don't decide. I analyse. Liberals focus on negative freedoms. That is political reality.

Liberalism is broad, and the linked site on party classifications shows it's neither left nor right wing, though more specific subclassifications can be placed somewhere. Broadly

OP meant liberal parties in the political context of the so-called "USA". In that context, liberalism is right wing.

You're neglecting subclassification

How. Your quote conicides with my argument. Liberalism is in favour of capitalism.

which is leftist. Leftism is the pursuit of equality/egalitarianism.

No. Watch the videos. Leftism is in favour of dismantling existing hierarchichal power structures in favour of equality. A "social market economy" is still capitalist.

Let's not pretend conservative liberalism or neoliberalism is the only liberalism.

They have vital things in common. And I (and OOP) oppose pretty much the complete intersection.

Back to topic: Liberals in the US definetly opposed the abolition of ICE. Probably because of the whole "rule of law" bu&iness in liberalism and because they think that ICE protects the interests of capital.

[–] indomara@lemmy.world -4 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Scarily enough, Eastern European bot farms with strong ties to Russia have been all over the internet for ages.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/09/16/1035851/facebook-troll-farms-report-us-2020-election/

Also, Microsoft releases reports on foreign influence ahead of US elections:

https://msblogs.thesourcemediaassets.com/sites/5/2023/11/MTAC-Report-2024-Election-Threat-Assessment-11082023-2-1.pdf

https://msblogs.thesourcemediaassets.com/sites/5/2024/04/MTAC-Report-Elections-Report-Nation-states-engage-in-US-focused-influence-operations-ahead-of-US-presidential-election-04172024.pdf

These influences now have moved overseas to the UK and Australia.

It's pretty universally accepted by anyone who cares enough to look that there are Eastern European (Russian) bot farms manipulating social media to divide and weaken Western countries.

[–] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 8 points 9 months ago

Scarily enough, Eastern European bot farms with strong ties to Russia have been all over the internet for ages.

yeah, it's how we got brexit and trump

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 7 points 9 months ago (1 children)

And... the explicit anarchist is a russian troll now? O.o

[–] indomara@lemmy.world 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I don't follow.

I was simply replying to the statement:

Are these Russian and Chinese agents who want to divide "us" (who do you mean with "us"?) In the room with us right now?

With some facts about that sort of thing happening, since many people seem to be unaware and take a similar tone implying it's crazy.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Just because something exists, doesn't mean it's valid to accuse someone of being that thing whenever they say something you don't like.

Nazis exist, too. That doesn't mean it's valid to accuse Anark of being a nazi.

[–] ayyy@sh.itjust.works 4 points 9 months ago

Also, Microsoft releases reports on foreign influence ahead of US elections

Funny how they also sell the “solutions” to this scary “problem”.

[–] ayyy@sh.itjust.works 12 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Or maybe Democrat policy deserves legitimate criticism after repeated failures? No, it must be those scary foreigners.

[–] lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com 1 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Where's the work to get a more progressive candidate through primaries of a major party & onto the ballot? So far it looks like splitting up factions instead of that.

[–] hark@lemmy.world 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

You mean like Bernie Sanders, who the democratic party fought harder against than Trump? Good luck getting a progressive candidate to pass through the party-controlled primary process.

[–] lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Persistence is key, and there are other political offices & levels of government. Republicans didn't take power by limiting their focus to the federal presidency. Internecine battles don't necessarily promote more progressives onto ballots.

[–] hark@lemmy.world 1 points 9 months ago

The problem is that persistence requires money to be practical. You're not going to find as many people to dedicate such a significant chunk of their lives voluntarily promoting progressive candidates (who themselves are running with low funds). It's not impossible for there to be some success stories, but the odds are so ridiculously low and even if progressives were to get a foothold, the billionaires would change the rules to favor themselves again. That's not to say it's not worth trying, but we have to recognize that how much things are stacked against us and that even the democratic party, seemingly our only viable path through this corrupt system, is not on our side.

[–] ayyy@sh.itjust.works -1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

I don’t understand the question. Can you please specify what location you would like me to provide example candidates for? Also, how many ‘s’ letters are in “strawberry”?

[–] lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com 1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Maybe reread the question.

Oh, are we playing the AI game? Let's pretend we're AI. Here's some fun punctuation: –—…―

Beep bip boop.

[–] HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 5 points 9 months ago (1 children)

That sounds just like what a leftist what believes slightly different than I do would say! They ruined leftism!

[–] porksnort@slrpnk.net 4 points 9 months ago

My favorite feature of being a lefty is how well we get along with each other.

My favorite lefties work on themselves and seek to genuinely understand the roots of any disagreement.

At the best of times, they cut through the crap by aligning with me on the basic values we all hold. Such as:

  • Don’t kill babies to get free real estate.
  • People who rape kids need to be stopped.
  • Don’t intentionally starve the population of your country because the potatoes they grew fetched a higher price internationally.

Isn’t this everyone’s experience?