this post was submitted on 30 Mar 2026
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[–] mar_k@hexbear.net 44 points 1 day ago (2 children)

God help us all if aliens first try to communicate with a puritanical crybully state like the US, Saudi Arabia, or India, instead of a largely rational society like China, Mexico, or certain communities of Orcas

[–] mar_k@hexbear.net 38 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (4 children)

I say orcas in all seriousness bc I feel they're basically the closest thing to aliens on Earth, rivaling or exceeding our intelligence in many ways (only animal with more forebrain neurons than us), while we've ignorantly underestimated their capacity for complex language until very recently

Orcas talk with multi-layered ranges of whistles and pulses combined with precise body gestures, and can even send 3d sonogram-like mental images to each other via echolocation. Yet we know next to nothing about what they're communicating, other than there appears to be clear structure, pattern, and organized repetition far beyond random chatter, and unique regional pod dialects passed across generations

From a linguistic standpoint, our debate on orca communication classifying as true language simply bc it transcends the rules of ours, plus our current complete inability to decode what they're saying, feels worrisome for an alien arrival scenario

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 25 points 1 day ago (1 children)

If birds have language and grammar like that japanese dude proved recently I have absolutely no doubt that orcas have extensive language and grammar we simply don't understand yet.

[–] mar_k@hexbear.net 14 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

Yeah corvids have (at the very least) simple languages and dialects, and are known to pass knowledge of good vs bad humans across generations. My grandpa nursed a crow back to health when he was in his 20s, and decades later sitting on the same bench in his 80s, crows would still regularly land on his shoulder. No one else's. I assumed they just like looked at a person and made primitive happy or angry sounds, but apparently it's deeper than that

Elephants are maybe even cooler: vocalization's only a small part of their communication, and they mainly use combination of seismic vibrations from their feet & ultra-specific body language. Their amount of variation between body/trunk/ear posture is way more subtle, complicated, and intentional than anything humans do for body language. It may even be something like a sign language, with its own grammar and syntax. Their feet are also incredibly sensitive, picking up vibrations invisible to everyone else: so they make extremely precise vibration-creating movements to send specific, patterned messages to each other via the ground. They'll also do this with a much louder rumbling when they need to send info to a friend several miles away

[–] SkingradGuard@hexbear.net 1 points 20 hours ago

I wonder if elephants can also be autistic like us

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 1 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

No, not Corvids.

This guy proved it using a songbird, a Japanese Tit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmys2abx4co

[–] HexReplyBot@hexbear.net 1 points 22 hours ago

I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:

[–] Kefla@hexbear.net 20 points 1 day ago (5 children)

I do think sometimes about how sea life intelligence is going to look extremely different from land-dwelling mammal intelligence. Industry of any kind is going to be much harder in the ocean, since you can't even make a fire. So it's possible there's a lot of stuff down there that's mostly as intelligent as we are but just can't develop a civilization the way we did because of the conditions they live in.

Like imagine we encountered a group of proto-humans who for whatever reason never harnessed fire, complex tools, or agriculture. Would we recognize their intelligence, or would we just think of them like chimpanzees, bonobos, and other apes? I think the latter. They'd be in zoos.

[–] mar_k@hexbear.net 17 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Yeah capitalists separated orcas from their loved ones to imprison them in a fucking swimming pool, and then acted shocked when a couple seaworld trainers got mauled. Not a single non-captive orca has killed a human: divers actually regularly swim with them (and there's several cases of orcas charging at distant lone swimmers before turning away when they see it's a human)

There's videos of them uncannily mimicking human words to seemingly attempt communication, as well as offering us gifts of their captured prey, and even seaweed after we refused all the meat

They also seem to have a pretty good idea that humans have diverse morals and practices. They distinguish individual humans as well as larger groups, and the matriarchs seem to remember and pass a library of information across generations. Historically, they knew to recognize and flee from settler Japanese and the Europeans who hunted them, while maintaining proximity to indigenous Japanese Ainu and certain Native Americans, who revered orcas and developed a symbiotic hunting relationship (and believed to have a deep spiritual friendship with them)

At the peak of orca hunting, they adapted extremely quick by sharing knowledge across pods, such as the locations of boats containing hostile cultures of humans, as well as evasion strategies. We found out that they literally figured out sailboats moved in the direction of the wind, and that they just needed to feel the wind and migrate the opposite way of that.

[–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 20 points 1 day ago

The last human zoo exhibit was in 1994.

[–] ComradeRat@hexbear.net 14 points 1 day ago

Humans have been using fire to cook food for over a million years. We diverged from chimpanzees six millionish years ago. Its almost guaranteed that cooking food is intimately tied up with the divergence of humans from other apes, as it gave us access to greater sources of nutrition, as well as the ability to spend less time eating by using heat to break down food instead of our teeth and guts

[–] BanMeFromPosting@hexbear.net 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Not to mention it's hard to have anything other than oral tradition. No way to write anything down. I remember someone talking about how octopodes and parrots are both incredibly clever, but they don't have any real way of transferring knowledge between generations, so each one must relearn the same stuff. And squids only live like 8 years or so, which don't help either.
I think orcas transfer knowledge? This is not at all my area of expertise, but I know different pods will have different ways of hunting the same prey + fashion fads and other stuff. But they don't have any sort of permanent record, which must be sucky.

[–] mar_k@hexbear.net 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

Oral tradition can be incredibly rich. Most civilizations in human history had no written language, until very recently. Only a few human cultures created written languages independently (Egyptians, Sudanese, Chinese, Iraqis, and a couple others). Mythology and epics from Ancient Greece, including Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey, were complicated stories passed exclusively by word of mouth from traveling poets. And oral wisdom + verbatim memory were incredibly valued and highly trained skills, so these stories might not have been as distorted across generations as we might assume

We already know orcas spend their entire lives by the sides of the same group, and that the matriarch leader does in fact pass customs, culture, and practices to the next generations by word of mouth. And they likely have greater brainpower for remembrance than us, so who knows, the matriarchs could have books worth of knowledge all in their heads. (And yea parrots and octopus are smart but definitely not on the level of orcas)

[–] ComradeRat@hexbear.net 1 points 1 day ago

There's actually some archaeologists/historians who argue early Chinese characters show influence from Cuneiform, and that both show simularities to neolithic protowriting systems in some of their symbols. Unfortunately they publish in french so i cant read their shit yet

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2520385123?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub++0pubmed

Theres also evidence (discussed in above article) that huntergatherers in Europe 40k years ago had a protowriting system as complicated as the very, very early cuneiform writings.

[–] BanMeFromPosting@hexbear.net 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I get kind of annoyed at how often communication on this site requires a person to cover every single possible thing that could be even somewhat related to what you're saying.
When I'm saying "they don't have a way of writing things down, they only have oral tradition" I am not saying "oral tradition bad" or "oral tradition not a useful method of giving on knawledge" - I even mention that Orcas DO pass on knowledge!
What I am saying is that "writing things down is pretty good for passing on knowledge and storing knowledge that isn't initially useful in a way that oral tradition can't". Oral tradition is rich and yadda yadda. It does not allow for long-term storage in the same way that written language.
Now I will get ahead of yet another thing I didn't write: Written language also has issues and is also not a perfect method of storage or anything. But it opens avenues oral tradition doesn't.

They don't have any sort of permanent record, which must be sucky

This is so tiring.

[–] mar_k@hexbear.net 3 points 1 day ago

I wasn't arguing with anything you said, just adding on stuff I find fascinating, like the possibility that even without that tangible record they perhaps have passed complex information across centuries or even millenniums

[–] MLRL_Commie@hexbear.net 3 points 1 day ago

It really depends on this concept of "smart", right? Even if orcas have the same brain capacity in physical/neurological terms, what distinguishes humans is the social aspect. When I say social, I mean thay we have constantly compounding social learning and concretizing that knowledge into technology (going back to sharpened spears tips or pieces of flint). This is the aspect which really sets humans apart, not necessarily the biology itself (though our brains have no doubt evolved over hundreds of thousands of years to depend on this social aspect).

If orcas had such time and ability to pass knowledge on not only through direct communication, but through communicated technology, they might have the same level of intelligence!

To be clear, I'm not making any normative claima about morality or such, I just don't want us to fall into the "biology determines smartness" idea which is undialectical and wrong. With my analysis, and a good normative ethics (which is like "treat beings as the best version of themselves that could exist given time and assistance") we could have a better take.

[–] mar_k@hexbear.net 14 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Orcas also have extremely strong matriarchal communal values, diverse cultures and practices, and complex emotions & grief rituals, with a whole new brain region we don't have but is assumed to be for higher-level emotional/social processing

We assume lack of civilization and invention = lack of capacity, but you can't build without opposable thumbs (or make fire underwater), and maybe they don't see the point in overcomplicating shit in the first place. Orcas tend to live long lives and rarely die from starvation, and starvation has only become somewhat common due to human overfishing, overhunting, and chemical waste. Modern humans under capitalist overindulgence wreak havoc to everyone's food chain, including our own.. Meanwhile different orca communities go for different foods, almost in a shared agreement type way to intricately balance their ecosystem and reduce tribal competition

[–] WhatDoYouMeanPodcast@hexbear.net 13 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You know those motherfuckers have some mad shit to talk about us.

[–] mar_k@hexbear.net 4 points 1 day ago

Genuinely hopeful we'll be able to decode their languages and maybe even talk to each other within the next few decades

[–] tactical_trans_karen@hexbear.net 2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

They're also murderous psychopaths. I watched that blue planet segment where they killed a different species of whale calf and then ate the jaw and left the rest.

[–] mar_k@hexbear.net 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

There's many cultures of orcas with wildly different documented hunting practices. I honestly feel like you can't generalize orcas in the same way you can't generalize humans, e.g. blanket statements about human nature as evil because of the actions of some cultures

It's even more complicated when you consider they have literal sub-species, such as Transient Orcas (mammal-eating) and Resident Orcas (fish-eating), with the latter usually being more social, empathetic, & tight-knit. Residents and Transients tend to steer clear of each other and have unspoken beef, with some Transient pods occasionally kidnapping & eating calves from Residents when no one's looking. Even among Transients, some pods regularly cruelly play with whales or seals, while other pods don't appear to do anything of the sort

[–] swelter_spark@reddthat.com 1 points 21 hours ago

Wow, I didn't know about that. Fascinating.

[–] gayspacemarxist@hexbear.net 2 points 1 day ago

They're just like us 🥹

[–] FlakesBongler@hexbear.net 15 points 1 day ago

If there are extraterrestrials out there, I think they'd be smart enough to just ignore the irrational actors and give them a good phasering if they get snippy