495

cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/17558715

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] themurphy@lemmy.ml 51 points 4 days ago

The draw-back with sodium batteries needs to be known, because they won't replace lithium anytime soon.

The density is lower, which is a great problem in EVs.

Not trying to be negative, but for an EV, or anything handheld, you get more weight for less power. Which is essential in a car, that uses more power the heavier it is.

What sodium IS the best at, are use cases where weight and size doesn't matter. Like with battery farms.

In this case they are much better than lithium.

[-] frezik@midwest.social 35 points 3 days ago

While you're not wrong, sodium batteries coming on the market have 200 Wh/kg. This is comparable to where LFP batteries were a few years ago. That means the newer sodium batteries are about as good as what's in lots of EVs right now.

[-] GamingChairModel@lemmy.world 12 points 3 days ago

The ceiling is going to be lower than with lithium. Sodium ions themselves weigh about 3 times more than lithium, for the same +1 charge. So it's not just that sodium is a certain number of years behind lithium. It's that it'll likely plateau at a point permanently behind where lithium will likely be.

[-] JoshuaFalken@lemmy.world 15 points 3 days ago

Sodium could easily replace lithium in EV applications if people would acknowledge that only 2% of trips are more than 50 miles. Though it's probably moreso the auto industry's fault that people have this assumption they need to prepare for a three hundred mile journey on a moments notice.

If manufacturers were putting out cars that had four figure price tags with double digit ranges, they would become the best selling vehicles within a decade and no one would care if it was sodium, lithium, or sawdust. Of course, there is less profit to be made from smaller vehicles and so the corporations won't bother.

[-] Addv4@lemmy.world 9 points 3 days ago

That's assuming you don't have issues charging at where you live, which is a pretty big if for a lot of people. A 300 Mi charge would mean if you can't charge daily, you would be able to go a couple of days without having to do so.

load more comments (9 replies)
[-] GenosseFlosse@lemmy.nz 5 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

EV owner here. 50 miles is not practical, beacuse then I need another for the other 2% of trips that are longer than that. This also ignores detours or traffic jams, when google will try to reroute me over a longer, but faster route. Plus, the "50 miles" readout you get is always just an estimate and the real range depends on temperature, driving speed, start-stops and how much elevation you need to cover. Some 30km trips here cost me 50+ EV km because its all uphill in one direction. I usually add 30km to my trip as required charge, because when the battery reaches 25km the car starts to complain with a nervously blinking battery readout and a "Charge now!" message on the dashboard.

"But then you just charge during the trip!" - Well this only work if i go somewhere where i know where to find RELIABLE chargers. I am well aware that there are good apps that show me charging locations, but getting a charging spot I can actually use is a different story:

  • charging station can be used by someone else, or there is queue and each car will most likely charge for 30+ mins. Of course, sometimes some inconsiderate pricks will hog a spot untill their car is fully charged, even if it takes his frikkin tesla 2h
  • charging stations close for repairs, sometimes for weeks
  • some charging stations need an account or RFID-tag before you can use their (but not other) charging network
  • other charging stations require you to bring your own cable
  • some charging stations dont have the connector you need for your car
  • some stations on the map are bogus, for example that one at my local volvo dealership that only exists to charge the showroom and customer cars, but is not accessible to the public.

Not saying EVs are bad, but the charging infrastructure still needs some work to be reliable and accessible. Petrol stations always have some large, obnoxious signs on the side of the road that you cant miss; Charging stations are sometimes just a tiny grey box on a wall and a 5-space parking lot, or behind a building and you never notice it when driving by.

A lot of households, like my own, have multiple cars. We have a commuter (50 miles round trip) and a family car. We use the commuter for most trips around town (only commutes 2x/week), and the family car for longer road trips.

I don't need a car that can do both, I just need to replace the commuter since that's where the vast majority of our driving is.

Don't try to solve the hard problem of putting charging stations in the middle of nowhere, solve the easy problem of replacing that second car. For that, sodium-ion is more than sufficient. Focus infrastructure improvements on apartment complexes, workplaces, and shopping centers so people who don't have a garage can charge.

[-] JoshuaFalken@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago

I wrote elsewhere about the infrastructure problem, but I'll sum up a couple things. There's around 200,000 gas stations in the United States. If there were an equivalent number of chargers around, having a small battery would be fine. Eventually this will be the case, but you highlight an important factor: closed ecosystems. All these chargers should work for any make of EV car.

As it stands with now, the need for a subscription or specific car or unique payment method is ludicrous. All these chargers should be required to have card readers the same way you can pay at the pump in a gas station. Beyond this, they'd all need to adopt the same charging method so people don't need a bunch of adapters in their trunk.

That said, there could be regulations established to require newly built housing, apartment buildings included, to have electric vehicle charging infrastructure - and more than just a few plugs. Grants could be made available for retrofitting existing buildings. If these things came to fruition, we wouldn't need two hundred thousand charging stations all over the place. It's not out of the question to install an overnight charging spot for every person that has an electric car - it just costs money.

Basically every argument I've seen against low range electric cars is founded in a charging infrastructure problem. Going to a bigger battery in a larger vehicle has significant and more costly ramifications on other infrastructure. It's better to aim for smaller, lighter vehicles with infrastructure in mind.

[-] badhops@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago

2015 Leaf owner here. I will agree with everything you said! If you know you know...and you my friend are spot phucking on

[-] MonkderDritte@feddit.de 25 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

But for static storage, only price/kw matters.

[-] GamingChairModel@lemmy.world 4 points 3 days ago

Price per kw and price per kwh stored. And price per kwh over the expected lifetime of the battery itself (longevity and reliability and safety and disposal will have to be factored into total cost of ownership).

load more comments (2 replies)
[-] Chronographs@lemmy.zip 7 points 4 days ago

Yeah I see these as the answer to the people who think solar energy is bad because the sun goes down.

load more comments (6 replies)
[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 16 points 3 days ago

the power station can be charged and discharged more than 300 times a year. A single charge can store up to 100,000 kWh of electricity and release electricity during the peak period of the power grid. It can meet the daily power needs of around 12,000 households and reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 13,000 tons annually.

Nice

[-] Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone 81 points 4 days ago

Hell yeah

I can't wait to see this headline again but about a bigger battery somewhere else

[-] DarkDarkHouse 24 points 4 days ago

Nice. This seems to be the future that solves a lot of problems. Right now in Australia, we’re seriously entertaining building nuclear power plants for the first time ever, to provide base load power that renewables allegedly can’t. Large sodium batteries could help us avoid that.

[-] noevidenz@infosec.pub 24 points 4 days ago

The LNP doesn't have a legitimate interest in transitioning to nuclear power or they would've begun over the last decade or so that they were in power.

Instead they've proposed - now that they're in opposition - a technology which is banned at the Federal level and individually at the state level, because they know that gives them years of lead time before they ever have to begin the project.

On top of that, all of the proposed sites are owned by companies who've already begun transitioning to renewable generation or renewable storage, and most of them are in states in which the state Premiers have publicly stated that they will not consider overturning their bans on nuclear power.

load more comments (3 replies)
[-] Hugin@lemmy.world 21 points 4 days ago

It's not just base load, turbines also provide grid stability. All the quick fluctuations as people turn things on and off are hard to load balance with solar, wind, or battery. A big spinning turbine has a lot of inertia. That helps keep thr grid at a constant frequency. As solar gets bigger and bigger we might need big solar powdered flywheel generators just to stabilize the grid.

[-] carleeno@reddthat.com 13 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Inverters could also provide "virtual inertia" which help to stabilize the grid frequency. However most of today's inverters don't have it, or it's disabled.

This means we don't need solar powered flywheels, which are inherently inefficient, we just need software (edit: and batteries of course) more or less.

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3417/7/7/654

[-] Hugin@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago

Partially. Inverters providing virtual inertia is good but has the problem of still being active and reactive. It helps and is cheaper and more efficient than flywheels.

Flywheels and turbines however provide a very sticky frequency. They help out a lot with stability and give inverters time to respond.

Think balancing a stick on your hand vs anchoring it in clay.

If we take enough turbines off line we are still probably going to need some mechanical power stabilization no matter how inefficient.

But yeah I think we are going to see a blend using as much electrical and as little mechanical as possible.

load more comments (9 replies)
load more comments (22 replies)
[-] Sir_Fridge@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago

Hopefully we can soon get one as home batteries to extend the use of solar panels. Because I don't feel great about having a lithium battery that large in my house

[-] Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee 8 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

According to Datang Group, the power station can be charged and discharged more than 300 times a year.

Well, nice, but "more than 300 times a year" is definitely a weird goal to define or a weird metric to brag about, right?

I mean, what in it's desig could be so critical that they wouldn't just say 'once daily' or something.

Does it require maintenance days when no cells are operational?

[-] Lifter@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 1 day ago

Maybe competitors are only up to 200 per year and these guys finally achieved 300 per year?

[-] reddig33@lemmy.world 22 points 4 days ago

Put one of these in every neighborhood please.

load more comments (6 replies)
[-] asteriskeverything@lemmy.world 15 points 4 days ago

I love how these look like Lego pieces snapped onto a green base.

Even if all that is painted cement or something it is also just really refreshing to see architecture, especially the sort of necessity eyesore that tech architecture/engineering requires, also being mindfully the environment it will exist in to some degree. Even if it is only visual.

[-] Cipher22@lemmy.world 10 points 4 days ago

Doesn't California have some insane battery too?

[-] Piemanding@sh.itjust.works 35 points 4 days ago

Yes, but that is Lithium-ion. These batteries are Sodium-ion which are better for the environment and can potentially be made a lot cheaper.. It's still pretty new technology so it's not really in any consumer products yet.

[-] yo_scottie_oh@lemmy.ml 9 points 4 days ago

That’s pretty neat.

load more comments
view more: next ›
this post was submitted on 02 Jul 2024
495 points (99.6% liked)

Technology

55690 readers
2726 users here now

This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.


Our Rules


  1. Follow the lemmy.world rules.
  2. Only tech related content.
  3. Be excellent to each another!
  4. Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
  5. Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
  6. Politics threads may be removed.
  7. No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
  8. Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
  9. Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed

Approved Bots


founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS