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submitted 3 days ago by Luci@lemmy.ca to c/foss@beehaw.org

Found this blog post and found it had more insight into the issues around the dev and the toxicity in FOSS

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[-] RockyC@lemm.ee 51 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Are we really complaining about gendered pronouns in source code notes for a web browser?

Is that what we are doing?

There are mountains of bigger fish to fry, y’all. Social change doesn’t happen overnight. It can take decades or longer.

Widespread language changes have historically taken decades or even centuries to occur.

Ask any woman or person of color over the age of 50 about the CONSTANT slights or worse endured every day for most of their lives for some perspective.

Fight the good fight, absolutely, but this isn’t worth getting angry over - at least not from what I’ve read so far.

[-] sanzky@beehaw.org 8 points 1 day ago

while you might be right some things are more important. why is your comment not directed to people actively blocking these changes? why not just agree to them and move on with these “more important things”. the PR was submitted. the effort had been done already. blocking it is an statement on its own.

[-] AVincentInSpace@pawb.social 14 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Compassion is not a zero-sum game. We do not have to reserve our capacity to care about issues only to issues that affect people we think are deserving.

[-] apotheotic@beehaw.org 41 points 2 days ago

To be clear we aren't complaining about the existence of the gendered language. We are complaining that the maintainer has repeatedly rejected friendly contributions which would fix the gendered language, under the premise that it is ToO pOLItIcAl, instead of just merging the very obvious improvement and moving on with life.

CONSTANT slights or worse endured every day for most of their lives for some perspective.

This is part of those constant slights. How can you simultaneously gesture toward the issue at hand and say that its not worth working on?

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[-] theroff@aussie.zone 35 points 2 days ago

There have been many improvements in making documentation more inclusive across the IT industry which shouldn't be scoffed at. The first that comes to mind is changing "master" and "slave" to "primary" and "secondary" (or "replica" etc.) because references to slavery is inconsiderate to many.

I don't think pile-ons are productive, but I think inclusive language and thinking is important.

[-] ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 2 days ago

You must construct additional pile-ons.

[-] Peter1986C@lemmings.world 2 points 1 day ago
[-] ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 day ago
[-] Peter1986C@lemmings.world 4 points 1 day ago

I know. I just put it there for those readers not necessarily in the know.

[-] Cube6392@beehaw.org 2 points 21 hours ago

And I specifically thank you for it. I didn't know there was a meta reference going on. Upvoted @ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com for excellent joke craft on account of it

[-] ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 day ago

Ah gotcha I thought you were correcting my spelling haha. My mistake!

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[-] drwankingstein@lemmy.dbzer0.com 27 points 2 days ago

Yeah, can't say I really care about this, this seems like a bit of a nothing burger.

[-] kilgore_trout@feddit.it 7 points 1 day ago

It is. Both SerenityOS and Ladybird are courageous projects, easy target for this drama.

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[-] CaptObvious@literature.cafe 37 points 3 days ago

This whole thing has jilted-lover vibes. There is no other reasonable explanation for dredging up a three-year-old PR denial than simply shit-stirring for the sake of trying to embarrass or hurt the dev in some way. It reeks of simple childish revenge.

[-] jherazob@beehaw.org 34 points 3 days ago

Except there's recent examples, and it's in the docs (On the "ideologically motivated changes" point at the end), this is established

[-] CaptObvious@literature.cafe 20 points 2 days ago

Great gods. They did as asked, but they weren’t sorry enough? I don’t even know what the complaint is. I’m obviously not the only one.

Political correctness makes my teeth hurt.

[-] Blisterexe@lemmy.zip 22 points 2 days ago

Yeah im super left-wing but this situation just stinks

[-] CaptObvious@literature.cafe 14 points 2 days ago

Same here and agreed. I deeply believe that people deserve equal respect and recognition no matter what form their genitalia takes. This situation is not about respect or recognition. It's either a personal vendetta or the Eternally Offended and Perpetually Outraged cadre went digging for a new target. Either way, what's happened here over the past couple of days is wrong.

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Calling an unspecified gender person anything other than "they" was until recently considered to be incorrect. "They" is plural but now is used to refer to singlar persons because writing "he or she" everywhere is too much. Calling a user "he" does not imply that users are male or can only be male. Not using "they" or "he/she" or obscure gender neutral pronouns does not make something inherently transphobic. Closing PRs that unnecessarily change pronouns as spam is not inherently transphobic, but the accompanying comment is not very inclusive.

The post talks about "white suppremacist language," but the proposed change did not remove white suppremacist language. It was just a generic anti "woke" message, possibly motivated by people brigading after the original PR to change "he" to "they." White suppremacists may use also use similar language, but you can't just pick things that a white suppremacist has done and decide that anyone else who does the same is a white suppremacist. He's not blameless, but people are intentionally provoking the developer and exagerating the responses for drama.

[-] warm@kbin.earth 84 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

'They' has always existed in the English language as plural or singular, context dependent. Hence it's natural transition into a pronoun. Non-native English speakers can be excused for using gendered pronouns because the problem isn't them not knowing and using it in the first place, it's them refusing to update the language after a reasonable explanation to do so.

People are brigading, sure, but it's such a simple change to make, one that only helps the world. So, yeah, fuck the devs honestly. Just accept the PR and move on, there was no need for any of this.

[-] Malgas@beehaw.org 46 points 3 days ago

Well, not always: Plural 'they' is a borrowing from Old Norse ca. 1200 AD, and the earliest attestation of singular 'they' is about a century later.

But, yeah, you'd think 700 years of continuous use would be enough to make it uncontroversial...

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[-] noodlejetski@lemm.ee 23 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

until recently

the first known written appearance of singular "they" is so old that it was still spelled with the thorn (þei)

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[-] BarryZuckerkorn@beehaw.org 50 points 3 days ago

Singular "they" is older than singular "you." And note, of course, that the pronoun "you" is conjugated as a plural, and we deal with it just fine.

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[-] GammaGames@beehaw.org 52 points 3 days ago

until recently

TIL 600 years ago is recent!

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[-] milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee 29 points 3 days ago

It does seem to me that complaining about gendered language in source code is about as stupid as a moral panic over daemons in systemd, or vulgarities in source code comments. There is some place for it... but not much

On top of that, 'he'/etc has been effectively gender ambivalent for a long time. I understand the desire to change that, but it's still a normal thing in English language. Similar to 'master' in git repositories and IDE connections, though those are both much more recent and arguably referencing much worse.

If a dev insists on 'she' everywhere, or 'they' in places that read awkwardly, should we flame and blame? In fact, why not go and convince Firefox to use exclusively feminine language in their source, to balance things out. It sounds more sensible than taking up a political fight over this!

Also while you're at it, ethical hacking is now done only by natural-human-skin-colour-hat hackers; background process on your computer are called abstract beings; your computer does not boot[strap], ('pull itself up by its bootstraps'), it has affirmative action from the motherboard to get it started; and when I saw the article headline, I thought the issue would be bigger ... that's what they said.

[-] Lionir@beehaw.org 4 points 1 day ago

This reads eerily close to reverse-ism. Please don't do that.

[-] milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee 1 points 1 day ago

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean.

[-] Lionir@beehaw.org 1 points 1 day ago

Your last two paragraphs, especially the last one, feel eerily close to reverse-ism.

"Reverse-ism" usually refers to "reverse discrimination". It's a big trope in far-right circles and ties directly to the "Great replacement" theory.

It's unclear what your intentions were when you said this but it felt weird.

[-] milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee 1 points 1 day ago

The last paragraph was just facetious, to make the point that correcting potentially-discriminating terms can be overdone.

And the previous, also a bit tongue in cheek, but since I'm contending that it's petty to fight over the Ladybird dev's use of 'he' as default pronoun, I was essentially supporting other options as a sort of faux balance. If 'he' were truly inappropriate here, balancing it with 'she' in another project wouldn't make it okay again. But if it's just not that big of a deal, except for a dominant bias, then adding diversity elsewhere perhaps settles things a bit, and allows those who feel marginalized to asset themselves.

Neither is a solid answer! If you don't agree with me that the bickering over that source code is overblown, fair enough, you can disagree. But I think my point stands.


By calling reverse discrimination a far-right trope, I presume you mean complaints about reverse discrimination? Or an argument that reverse discrimination solves the problem? (Though I thought that latter was more argued by the Left, under the term 'positive discrimination'.)

Either way I don't think that's what I meant.

[-] Lionir@beehaw.org 3 points 1 day ago

Right, I might've been more confused with your previous to last paragraph because using she/her pronoun as 'default' was and is a genuine feminist practice in French where gender neutrality is more difficult.

Anyhow, I would recommend not arguing your points like that - it just kinda smells like bad faith argumentation.

By calling reverse discrimination a far-right trope, I presume you mean complaints about reverse discrimination?

Yes, that would be correct. It's the basis of the Great replacement theory.

[-] Rozauhtuno@lemmy.blahaj.zone 30 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

On top of that, ‘he’/etc has been effectively gender ambivalent for a long time

Appeal to tradition bias

I understand the desire to change that, but it’s still a normal thing in English language.

So is singular 'they'.

The rest of your post is just a slippery slope argument.

[-] milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee 7 points 2 days ago

Appeal to tradition bias?

Yes. Turns out languages work by saying things the same way somebody else said them before.

My point isn't that there can't be a reason to change. My point is calling 'he' out as implying misogyny on the part of the author is ridiculous, and fussing over changing it is, in this situation, in my opinion, petty.

So is singular 'they'.

Indeed. Some English contexts are used to defaulting to 'he' for ungendered animate; some to 'they'. Neither necessitates an egregious humanitarian wrong.

The rest of your post is just a slippery slope argument.

I did get facetious toward the end. If you like, you don't have to build your life philosophy on the foundation of the logical integrity of my closing paragraph. Up to you.

[-] locuester@lemmy.zip 16 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)
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[-] JackbyDev@programming.dev 10 points 2 days ago

And then another, where a trans woman is called “spam.”

Pretty clear they meant the PR was spam, not the person.

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this post was submitted on 03 Jul 2024
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