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submitted 2 months ago by db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com to c/fediverse@lemmy.world

cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/28930199

A bit of an effortpost :)

Please do crosspost in more fitting communities if you think of any

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[-] De_Narm@lemmy.world 73 points 2 months ago

While I do agree with the problems identified, I can't help but think they also made forums a lot better. Due to the lower discoverability and higher effort to actually join communities felt more personal. You interacted with smaller groups and came to know specific people. I still have friends from back then.

On larger platforms, I never had that. Even lemmy, which is small in comparison has enough people that I barely even think about specific users. Let alone speak with them on a personal level.

[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 48 points 2 months ago

That's a double-edged knife. yes it feels closer and personal, but it also breeds inside groups and cliques. I've been turned away from multiple forums because I was too ASD to fit in with their culture but there was no other space to discuss it. And this can go much much worse than just a culture-fit. Not to mention that if that forum becomes too popular, that culture is anyway lost.

However using lemmy there's the best of both worlds. You can still keep your instance small enough so that you know your local users, but also be able to interact with the larger community without the extra effort I explained. For example there's instances out there like beehaw and hexbear which through have managed to retain their own culture and standards even while federated.

[-] LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com 23 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Hard agree. I would also like to add that I think a lot of people remember forums a lot better than they were. Federation keeps admins and mods in check, these features act as checks and balances on instances

*Nothing personal ofc db0 you run an awesome instance.

[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 22 points 2 months ago

*Nothing personal ofc db0 you run an awesome instance.

Insult acknowledged! Benned for life!

[-] Tippon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 2 months ago

Uncle Benned, or Obi Wan Kenobi Benned? 🤔

[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 2 months ago

Benned and Jerrys!

[-] tiramichu@lemm.ee 19 points 2 months ago

I had so many good times on forums back in the day.

The personal nature of them was great for being social and making friends, but it was also good for the quality of the content for and user behaviour too.

When everyone recognises you and remembers your past behaviour, people put effort into creating a good reputation for themselves and making quality posts. It's like living in a small village versus living in a city.

The thought of being banned back then genuinely filled people with dread, because even if you could evade it (which many people couldn't as VPNs were barely a thing) you'd lose your whole post history and personal connection with people, and users did cherish those things.

[-] pseudo@jlai.lu 10 points 2 months ago

Even lemmy, which is small in comparison has enough people that I barely even think about specific users. Let alone speak with them on a personal level.

I have a different experience but I'm on a very smaller instance than .world. Your instance is big, generalist but their is lots of them that are location- or topic-oriented. Such instances are not only smaller with a more personnalised local thread but the people on it share already identified common points with you.

[-] De_Narm@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago

Unfortunately, there is no instance matching my interests. There are a number of communities across different instances, but it seems like several people tried to make their own, didn't interact with each other and all of them are long dead.

Once I find such an instance, I'll switch over. I've been meaning to leave .world anyways.

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[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 60 points 2 months ago

We trusted corporations.

I'd like to think we've collectively learned our lessons, but watching people migrate from Reddit to fucking Discord makes me think that we really have not and probably never will.

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[-] shadowedcross@sh.itjust.works 50 points 2 months ago

I don't know, but every fucking group's reliance on Discord pisses me off. I'm very much into modding my games, the problem is that every damn mod author wants to do support only on Discord, which means probably more than half of my 200 servers are just for that.

[-] plantedworld@lemmy.world 10 points 2 months ago

Man you said it. I despise discord. My gaming group will post things in the chat, and if you ever want to look at something again it's a pain in the ass to find it

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[-] recklessengagement@lemmy.world 41 points 2 months ago

This is a fantastic read. I wasnt around for the prime days of forums but I did experience them a bit.

I'm becoming extremely concerned about the number of topics and projects that are migrating to Discord. My main issue is that it is not and never will be publically indexed, and among other problems, is itself a corporate walled garden we consider to be "one of the good ones".

I really hope we find and establish a "low executive cost" solution before the next time Discord fumbles (which is inevitable) and we can claw some of that activity back.

But people are so used to seamless voice and video chat nowadays - and that's a technical hurdle that AFAIK, no open-source self-hostable projects have come close to solving.

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[-] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 40 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

If there was a Reddit/Lemmy style website (where people create communities for various subjects but it's all available from the same website using the same credentials) with forum style discussions I would be outta here in a moment.

Ongoing discussions with bumps are so much better for knowledge accumulation (that's the reason why they're still used by specialized communities), the major issue with forums, as pointed out, is the hassle of having to go from one website to another to talk about various subjects and needing to sign up to each one of them.

As for solving the "little Kings" issue, dumb backend, smart frontend. Remove admins from the equation, those hosting are only there to host. People moderate communities but communities can easily be replaced. People create a frontend to access the backend but from a user point of view it doesn't make a difference what frontend they use, they will get access to the same content.

The fact that I've written this comment a dozen times since last year proves a point, Reddit/Lemmy style websites just lead to content being repeated again and again. This comment will get lost to time just like all the other times I shared my opinion on the subject. On a forum it would be part of the ongoing discussion and anyone who wanted to go through the whole thread where all discussions on that subject to place would read it, no matter how long it had been since I posted.

[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 16 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

It seems to me the only thing you're missing from the functionality you want on lemmy is a sorting system which just bumps any threads with new comments to the top. I don't like that approach myself, but if that's what you want I don't see a reason not to have it. Why don't you suggest it to the lemmy devs? It doesn't seem like it would be difficult to add it.

EDIT: Actually, nevermind, this already exists with the "New Comments" feature. Why don't you just use that? https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/?dataType=Post&listingType=Subscribed&sort=NewComments

[-] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 8 points 2 months ago

Only works if everyone's experience is the same and discussions are centralized in threads. I added to my comment but on a forum that discussion would be part of a thread where all similar articles/discussions would be centralized instead of having a new thread being opened on the same subject every few weeks and people having to rewrite the same opinion every time (or just not sharing their opinion anymore because they're tired of repeating themselves every time someone wants to talk about that subject).

There's no knowledge accumulation with the way things work on Reddit/Lemmy, just repetition and things being forgotten.

[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I can't disagree enough. There was little knowledge accumulation in oldschool forums either. There were constant arguments about thread necromancy and people not searching before asking. It sounds like you're describing a parallel idyllic universe.

This kind of knowledge repository is why were have megathreads and/or attached wikis.

Regardless of that, if you really wanted to run a lemmy instance like that, you can do that right now. You can set up a lemmy instance where you default to sorting everything by "New Comments" and discussions as "Chat" and you get an identical model to old school forums. Hell, as long as you find a good amount of like-minded folks and you all agree to sort the same way, you can build up your "knowledge accumulation" inside the existing lemmy instances and communities.

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[-] MusketeerX@lemm.ee 14 points 2 months ago

I don't disagree.

There is one forum I still participate in:

https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum/

It's mostly tech-focussed and Australia-centric, but it does have other topics like sport, TV etc..

I wish there were more like this.

I hate that the bulk of online discussion is now owned/monopolised by a couple of huge corporations.

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[-] yessikg@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 points 2 months ago

There are several forum software companies working on ActivityPub support, I know both Discourse and NodeBB have been working on it for a while

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[-] cyclohexane@lemmy.ml 38 points 2 months ago

People prefer centralization, and it makes sense. The Fediverse resolves most of the issues with decentralization, but so does centralization, which came way sooner, and arguably did it better.

Also, people seem to forget that Facebook was pretty cool back then. It had superior features, and was not the buggy mess it is today.

[-] FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 2 months ago

Mostly FB wasn’t a trove of far right shit and it was before a lot of the scandals pointing out to what extent our data is sold.

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[-] jaggedrobotpubes@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago

Anything big enough becomes a public restroom. Cooperation and syncronization between groups small enough not to devolve in that way seems to be an especially promising path forward.

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[-] ChopSuey@quokk.au 30 points 2 months ago

The same way you moved from reddit to here. Dissatisfaction and momentum.

[-] Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago

I still post on Wil Wheaton's old phpBB forum from time to time. Nobody else does, though. :(

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Millennials naively assumed that the following generations would just naturally be as computer literate as they are. We're dealing with people now who think that wi-fi is internet service.

The author of the article is specifically referring to bulletin board forums when describing forums. Link aggregators like reddit are not forums. They are comments sections.

[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 18 points 2 months ago

I am the author. Heard you were talking shit...

I kid, I kid :D

I insist that in their current form, reddit (and lemmy) can serve as both forums and link aggregators with comment sections.

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[-] Stern@lemmy.world 23 points 2 months ago
[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 2 months ago

I was considering mentioning that GenX stuff, but I felt it was too obscure and would only serve to posture my creds :)

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[-] deedan06_@lemmy.dbzer0.com 21 points 2 months ago

Yeah. Federating forums seem like a useful feature to keep them going. The forum style has it benefits that the discord and reddit style lacks. Sadly a forum I used a lot for my community is now in its final days, even if it managed to last a lot longer than others

[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 2 months ago

Maybe ask if they're willing to switched over to lemmy? You can sort like a forum does. Long shot but hey....

[-] deedan06_@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 2 months ago

true. I didn't consider that. That would could work. Lemmy is a lot more advanced in that regard. Currently the best ideas are Discord and give up, and the original owners are done with the idea, but I could try and create a spiritual successor on here. Lemmy suffers a bit from the same isues as Forums with lack of people, but I only need to convince the OGs. I need to think about that, and a forum from 2004 whose software is a decade out of date is easy to beat in that regard

Also thanks for creating this awesome instance.

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[-] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 21 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Much easier access.

You make a reddit account or a discors account and you have limited access to thousands of forums.

Imagine giving your email address and making a password and solving a captcha hundreds of times instead. Who would choose to?

And don't even get me started on the ease of operating these subreddits and discord channels instead of building and hosting websites.

[-] ericjmorey@discuss.online 8 points 2 months ago

Discord and Reddit also had uniquely improved their UIs over the existing options.

[-] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Until that API nonsense I was always using old.reddit because the redesign was ass.

Discord is cool tho, better than skype gui for sure.

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[-] EmperorHenry@discuss.tchncs.de 19 points 2 months ago

Forums still exist, there only for extremely niche things though...Like high powered flashlights

[-] Stern@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago

Somethingawful is still going strong, even after Lowtax died.

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[-] linearchaos@lemmy.world 17 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Article claims the forums were expensive and difficult to maintain. I thing it more likely that Facebook groups are epopular because people are already there.

Discord has done an amazing job at convenience. It's free, they have a rather generous API. The communities have created fantastic bots. But it's important to remember discord isn't a forum it's a live chat. Two people having a live discussion is a very different thing than two people carefully curating their responses in a forum.

Reddit and Lemmy are curated knowledge repository wrapped in discourse. Which brings an advantage over old forums.

More or less I would argue that the article is missing convenience as a driving factor.

Edit: I poorly skimmed this article and mistook some of its points. This comment deserves no upvotes and I'll circle back later and give some credible feedback.

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[-] s38b35M5@lemmy.world 16 points 2 months ago

I used to participate in (what was then) the largest and most active automotive enthusiast forum for a specific brand. They had forums for each major model run, and classifieds, etc. I'd go there for how-to's, detailed info, reviews, tips and tricks, and of course, to tall with like-minded people. Meet ups even spawned from these groups, and friendships were forged.

As it really picked up steam, though, the forum creators decided to monetize, as every large website grapples with how to sustain their growth. Unfortunately, they decided to implement ads, subscription/pay wall, and within a month, there were five competing websites. The majority of us left in the first two weeks.

Now that forum still exists, but the content is gone, deleted by users who didn't appreciate their content being monetized (sound familiar, June 2023?). The replacements? Some struggle on, and one or two are vibrant, but mostly, it imploded. There was one glorious pair of years though, when I (and thousands of others) spent hours every day on the forum, and every topic was covered.

In hindsight, the downfall was more than just the advertisements and pay walling. It was a few non-admins that were treated as defacto mods, and they had bad attitudes. Flaming anyone who asked questions that were asked before (this was before Google made searching easier), and also holding their own practices as the only way to maintain their cars.

The reddit versions of the forums were not remotely the same, with people coming and going and not really sticking around. The best place for the info is still forums, though I think they struggle with server upkeep and costs. It's sad to me, but all things change. I'm glad for archive.org.

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[-] cabbage@piefed.social 16 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Great post!

I would be curious to know how many people on here have found memories from BBcode-style forums.

Personally I kinda skipped web 2.0 - I had some accounts, sure, but I hardly interacted with anything else than direct messaging. However I used to hang out on phpBB for probably hours every day before Facebook took over, having been lured in by needing help progressing in Pokémon on my GameBoy Advance.

I guess I'm a minority around here in never having used Reddit much. But I'm wondering if we're, in general, a bunch of ageing nerds who are nostalgic to web 1.0, or if we're a more diverse bunch than that. ;)

Edit:
Oh, and speaking of nostalgia, I'm sad LemmyBB is not maintained any more! It makes perfect sense that it isn't of course, but what a blast it would be.

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[-] poVoq@slrpnk.net 15 points 2 months ago

While your post does mention notifications which really helps with engagement and was lacking from most forums, the main issue was IMHO lack of good mobile support of all the main forum platforms until as you said Discourse came along, but by then it was too late.

[-] Blaze@feddit.org 13 points 2 months ago

Seems like an interesting post, thanks for writing it!

[-] Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world 11 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

My migration was primarily driven by threading, voting, and ads.

  1. forums (community topics) >
  2. slashdot (community topics + threads) >
  3. digg / reddit (community topics + threads + comment voting) >
  4. Lemmy (community topics + threads + comment voting - ads)
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[-] Flamekebab@piefed.social 10 points 2 months ago

I am very biased in this stuff, I'll say that up front. I was in the "in-crowd" for multiple forums over the years, ran my own for many years (essentially a personality cult, as per your article), and so of course I have a warm and fuzzy view of the medium. Importantly, I found my time on forums to be socially stimulating. By that I mean that the interactions were strong enough that I didn't feel lonely, despite being stuck in various isolated places. I have never felt that way about the interactions I've had any other platforms, with the exception of direct IM clients.

With that preamble out of the way, something that's come up in the comments below but I don't feel has been explored sufficiently is permanence. Modern profit-driven platforms focus on transience. They are built around the endless-feed model and keeping users engaged as long as possible. This is built into their very bones - it's always about new content and discussion isn't designed to last more than a day. Old content is actively buried.

That's antithetical to the traditional forum model. Topics on a subject would persist for as long as there was interest (sometimes too long, of course) and users' contributions would form a corpus of work, so to speak. I found that forums that allowed for avatars and signatures were particularly good in this respect as they served as "familiar faces", allowing users to become visibly established community members.

I've used Reddit for 14 years (although lately I've given up on it) and not once in that time have I felt a sense of community. The low barrier of entry and the minimal opportunity cost of leaving a community makes the place a revolving door of (effectively) anonymous users. It's my opinion that a small barrier to entry is a good thing, coupled with persistence of content. It's not enough to have much of a chilling effect, but it provides a small amount of consequence to users' actions and that's arguably good for community formation and cohesion. A gentle counter to John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory ( https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/green-blackboards-and-other-anomalies ).

I run a Facebook group and we have an entrance question - the answer to the question is basic knowledge for the target audience, however the question itself also includes directions for where to find the answer (the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article OR the group's rules). Most people just give the answer (and some overthink it and put a load of extra info in, because the question is suspiciously easy) but a subset of people either can't be bothered or don't even finish reading the question. In my opinion, the community we've built is better without those people.

This ties into the concept of profit-driven vs. community-driven platforms. A profit-driven platform wants as many eyeballs as possible, regardless of what the owner of those eyeballs can contribute to the community. The community exists purely to facilitate profit, something which feels to me like a terrible basis for a community.

Something I do feel OP is correct about is discoverability - that's particularly an issue in the modern era of garbage search engines. I don't have any particular thoughts on the subject, I just wanted to say "Yep! Agreed!", haha.

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this post was submitted on 03 Oct 2024
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Fediverse

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