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The question that everyone has been dying to know has been answered. Finally! What will scientists study next?

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[-] PetteriPano@lemmy.world 231 points 4 weeks ago

The theorem holds true. The theorem states that the monkey has infinite time, not just the lifetime of our universe.

That's just lazy science to change the conditions to make sensational headlines. Bad scientists!

[-] Botzo@lemmy.world 107 points 4 weeks ago

This just in: scientists disprove validity of thought experiment; philosophers remain concerned that they've missed the point.

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[-] ogmios@sh.itjust.works 37 points 4 weeks ago

It also makes a pretty bold claim about us actually knowing the lifespan of the universe.

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[-] 0x0@programming.dev 11 points 3 weeks ago

the monkey has infinite time

Use an infinite number of monkeys instead?

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[-] todd_bonzalez@lemm.ee 95 points 3 weeks ago

How is the infinite monkey theorum "misleading". It's got "infinite" in the name. If you're applying constraints based on the size or age of the universe, you are fundamentally misunderstanding the thought experiment.

[-] Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

Infinite monkeys would produce everything in the time that it would take to type it out as fast as anyone can type, infinite times. There would also be infinite variations of slower versions, including an infinite number of versions where everything but the final period is written, but it never gets added (same with every other permutation of missing characters and extra ones added).

There would be infinite monkeys that only type one of Shakespeare's plays or poems, and infinite monkeys that type some number greater than that, and even infinite monkeys that type out plays Shakespeare wanted to write but never got around to, plus infinite fan fictions about one or more of his plays.

Like infinite variations of plays where Juliette kills Hamlet, Ceasar puts on a miraculous defense and then divides Europe into the modern countries it's made up of today, Romeo falls in love with King Lear, and Transformers save the Thundercats from the Teenaged Mutant Ninja Turtles who were brainwashed to think they were ancient normal samurai lizards. Some variations having all of that in the same play.

That's the thing about infinity. If there's any chance of something happening at all, it happens infinite times.

Even meta variants would all happen. Like if there's any chance a group of monkeys typing randomly on typewriters could form a computer, there would be infinite variations of that computer in that infinite field of monkeys, including infinite ones that are trying to stimulate infinite monkeys making up a computer to verify that those monkeys make up a valid computer worth building and don't have some bug where the temperature gets too high and melts some of the monkeys or the food delivery system isn't fast enough to keep up and breaks down because monkeys get too tired to keep up with necessary timings.

BUT, even though all of these would exist in that infinite sea of monkeys, there would be far more monkeys just doing monkey things. So many more that you could spend your whole lifetime jumping to random locations within that sea of monkeys and never see any of the random organization popping out, despite an infinite number of monkeys and societies of monkeys dedicating their whole existence to making sure you, specifically, can find them (they might be too busy fighting off the infinite number of monkeys and societies of monkeys dedicating their lives to prevent you from ever finding non-noise in the sea of monkeys).

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[-] fjordbasa@lemmy.world 61 points 3 weeks ago

It was the best of times, it was the blurst of times??

You stupid monkey!

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[-] shrugs@lemmy.world 53 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

So, while the Infinite Monkey Theorem is true, it is also somewhat misleading.

Is it though? The Monkey Theorem should make it understandable how long infinity really is. That the lifetime of the universe is not long enough is nothing unexpected IMHO, infinity is much (infinitely) longer. And that's what the theorem is about, isn't it?!

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[-] SlamWich@lemmy.world 44 points 3 weeks ago

This is clownery, humanity is infinite monkeys, and we wrote Hamlet ages ago.

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[-] AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world 40 points 4 weeks ago

Yeah, that’s why we need at least... two of them.

[-] eager_eagle@lemmy.world 16 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

the paper used the entire population (200 thousand) and would take some 10 ^ 10 ^ 7 heat deaths of the universe

[-] Nougat@fedia.io 42 points 4 weeks ago

It could happen the very first time a monkey sat down at a typewriter. It's just very unlikely.

[-] adarza@lemmy.ca 16 points 4 weeks ago

from the wiki article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem

If there were as many monkeys as there are atoms in the observable universe typing extremely fast for trillions of times the life of the universe, the probability of the monkeys replicating even a single page of Shakespeare is unfathomably small.

[-] Nougat@fedia.io 36 points 4 weeks ago

... the probability of the monkeys replicating even a single page of Shakespeare is unfathomably small.

But not zero.

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[-] Overshoot2648@lemm.ee 34 points 3 weeks ago

How is this a study? It's just basic probability on a bogo sort style algorithm.

[-] Yaysuz@lemm.ee 15 points 3 weeks ago

It’s not a “study”, it’s just 2 mathematicians having some fun. The paper is a good read, and as a math teacher I see a lot of pedagogical values in such publications.

[-] lvxferre@mander.xyz 30 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I have a way to make it work.

Have the monkey write down a single character. Just one. 29/30 of the time, it won't be the same character as the first one in Shakespeare's complete works; discard that sheet of paper, then try again. 1/30 of the time the monkey will type out the right character; when they do it, keep that sheet of paper and make copies out of it.

Now, instead of giving a completely blank sheet to the monkey, give them one of those copies. And let them type the second character. If different from the actual second character in Shakespeare's works, discard that sheet and give him a new copy (with the right 1st char still there - the monkey did type it out!). Do this until the monkey types the correct second character. Keep that sheet with 2 correct chars, make copies out of it, and repeat the process for the third character.

And then the fourth, the fifth, so goes on.

Since swapping sheets all the time takes more time than letting the monkey go wild, let's increase the time per typed character (right or wrong), from 1 second to... let's say, 60 times more. A whole minute. And since the monkey will type junk 29/30 of the time, it'll take around 30min to type the right character.

It would take even longer, right? Well... not really. Shakespeare's complete works have around 5 million characters, so the process should take 5*10⁶ * 30min = 2.5 million hours, or 285 years.

But we could do it even better. This approach has a single monkey doing all the work; the paper has 200k of them. We could split Shakespeare's complete works into 200k strings of 25 chars each, and assign each string to a monkey. Each monkey would complete their assignment, on average, after 12h30min; some will take a bit longer, but now we aren't talking about the thermal death of the universe or even centuries, it'll take at most a few days.


Why am I sharing this? I'm not invalidating the paper, mind you, it's cool maths.

I've found this metaphor of monkeys typing Shakespeare quite a bit in my teen years, when I still arsed myself to discuss with creationists. You know, the sort of people who thinks that complex life can't appear due to random mutations, just like a monkey can't type the full works of Shakespeare.

Complex life is not the result of a single "big" mutation, like a monkey typing the full thing out of the blue; it involves selection and inheritance, as the sheets of paper being copied or discarded.

And just like assigning tasks to different monkeys, multiple mutations can pop up independently and get recombined. Not just among sexual beings; even bacteria can transmit genes horizontally.

Already back then (inb4 yes, I was a weird teen...) I developed the skeleton of this reasoning. Now I just plopped the numbers that the paper uses, and here we go.

[-] Ookami38@sh.itjust.works 16 points 3 weeks ago

I think the point is less about any kind of route to Hamlet, and more about the absurdity of infinite tries in a finite space(time). There are a finite (but extremely large) number of configurations of English characters in a work the length of Hamlet. If you have truly an infinite number of attempts (monkeys, time, or both are actually infinite) and the trials are all truly random (every character is guaranteed to have the same chance as every other) then you will necessarily arrive at that configuration eventually.

As far as your process, of procedurally generating each letter one by one until you have the completed works, we actually have a monkey who more or less did that already. His name is William.

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[-] ech@lemm.ee 27 points 4 weeks ago

it is also somewhat misleading

...what? No it isn't. Restricting the premise from infinite to any finite amount of time completely negates it. That doesn't prove it's "misleading", it proves anyone that thinks it does has no idea what they're talking about.

[-] onnekas@sopuli.xyz 26 points 3 weeks ago

There's still a chance that a monkey will type it on the first attempt. It's just very small.

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[-] SimpleMachine@lemmy.world 25 points 3 weeks ago

Ignoring the obvious flaw of throwing out the importance of infinity here, they would be exceedingly unlikely but technically not unable. A random occurrence is just as likely to happen on try number 1 as it is on try number 10 billion. It doesn't become any more or less likely as iterations occur. This is an all too common failure of understanding how probabilities work.

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[-] irotsoma@lemmy.world 20 points 3 weeks ago

Lifetime of the universe is infinitely less than infinite time. So they solved for the wrong problem. Of course it may take longer than the life of the universe, or it may happen in a year. That's the whole point of the concepts of infinity and true randomness. Once you put a limit on time or a restriction on randomness, then the thought experiment is broken. You've totally changed the equation.

[-] Honytawk@lemmy.zip 19 points 3 weeks ago

But we aren't talking about one monkey. We are talking about infinite monkeys.

Infinity is already a loaded concept in our universe.

[-] jordanlund@lemmy.world 19 points 3 weeks ago

The statement isn't about "A" monkey. It's about an infinite amount of monkeys.

[-] todd_bonzalez@lemm.ee 31 points 3 weeks ago

And an infinite amount of time.

This "rebuttal" is forced contrarianism. It's embarrassing.

A thought experiment has rules, you can't just change them and say the experiment doesn't make sense...

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[-] MentallyExhausted@reddthat.com 19 points 3 weeks ago

It was the best of times, it was the blurst of times? You stupid monkey!

[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 19 points 3 weeks ago
[-] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 21 points 3 weeks ago

The whole point of the thought experiment is that you have infinite monkeys.

[-] Zorque@lemmy.world 12 points 3 weeks ago
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[-] eager_eagle@lemmy.world 18 points 4 weeks ago

As such, we have to conclude that Shakespeare himself inadvertently provided the answer as to whether monkey labour could meaningfully be a replacement for human endeavour as a source of scholarship or creativity. To quote Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 3, Line 87: “No”.

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[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 17 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Well you're not supposed to just have one. It's supposed to be a thousand monkies at a thousand typewriters.

Now do the Mythbusters thing and figure out how many monkies and typewriters it would take for them to write Hamlet in just under a year. Don't just solve the myth; put it to the test!

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[-] BaneOfStuff@lemmy.world 16 points 4 weeks ago
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[-] dudenas@slrpnk.net 15 points 3 weeks ago

They forgot the lifespan of the monkey, those thought experimenters.

[-] Deceptichum@quokk.au 13 points 4 weeks ago

The author is so stupid, the monkey will of old age long before the universe ends.

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[-] betterdeadthanreddit@lemmy.world 12 points 3 weeks ago

Strong entry for an Ig Nobel Prize if nothing else.

[-] Kethal@lemmy.world 11 points 4 weeks ago

Use infinite monkeys.

[-] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 11 points 3 weeks ago

There was a plank computer post here last couple of days. It showed an atomic sized computer performing one crack attempt every 10^-44 seconds would take a 95 character alphabet 100 years to crack a 121 character password.

Monkeys take up 1m^3. 10^105 bigger than a plank length. Typing 120wpm is 10^43 slower. Ignoring punctuation and spaces and capitalization, a 26 character alphabet allows for about 52 more characters than a 95 character alphabet.

Bottom line, monkeys can't come anywhere close to being able to crack a 100 character password from a 26 character alphabet.

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[-] mlg@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

That's because they only considered one monkey.

You need a thousand monkeys working at a thousand typewriters.

[-] Kabaka@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 3 weeks ago

They did not limit themselves to one monkey. From the article:

As well as a single monkey, they also did the calculations using the current global population of around 200,000 chimpanzees.

[-] Bob_Robertson_IX@discuss.tchncs.de 15 points 3 weeks ago

The whole study is trash. A chimpanzee is not a monkey.

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this post was submitted on 31 Oct 2024
549 points (92.6% liked)

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